Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:14 Welcome to my podcast. I'm so grateful and some good friends enabled me to present them to you becoming a member of <inaudible> culture control center in America. Have a great day. This is episode 267, a conversation with Dr. Eric Rosen.
Speaker 1 00:01:12 Okay, welcome everybody here. I am delighted to host, uh, Dr. Eric Roseanne Bush. My good friend of long time. Um, nowadays and my colleague in a book we were writing on Tibetan medicine and, uh, Eric has devoted his life to the study of the traditional sciences of Asia botanical treasures, ancient texts, and living transmission. He managed herbs and medicine gardens in various sites in India over the last many decades. And, um, he's also studied with masters of Tibet in Chinese and Ayurvedic medicines, and currently maintains a clinical practice in California. I think basically in Berkeley, I think, right. That's your main site there and in grass valley
Speaker 2 00:02:03 And grass valley boasts. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:02:05 Right, right. And then he frequently teaches courses on solar path and he will be teaching one in, uh, Menlo on a retreat and, um, healing spa in the Catskill mountains finished in New York, uh, come September. And I've started with Eric and I have been treated by Eric and, um, the fact that I'm not levitating and totally healthy, it's not his fault. It's my failure to follow his prescription. I'm sure he also translates medical texts from Tibetan Don Sanskrit. And, uh, his teacher in, uh, in Tibetan medicine is the famous Dr. <inaudible>, who is also a teacher of mine and a wonderful person currently on retreat, a six months retreat from his strenuous teaching and, and, uh, and doctoring, uh, professor. So, uh, okay. Eric wonderful. Uh, you also uniquely combined Chinese and Ayurvedic perspectives with Tibetan perspective, which I think is really very interesting. Can you give us, um, uh, and it to begin with? Can you tell us something about how the three of them interconnect and how it's useful in practice as well as theory?
Speaker 2 00:03:23 Yeah. Sure. Great. Thanks so much, Bob. Um, so yeah, of course nature is one language, right? There is no separation of, of how nature and ecology and, and life functions. Um, but us as humans, of course, we, we develop languages, we develop traditions and, and, and with that, we create systems. Um, so the, the medical traditions of Asia, and you could say, you know, Chinese and Indian medicine are extremely, you know, I mean, they're massive and they're very ancient and, um, and in the same way as Tibetan medicine is less known, but it's also a very vast tradition. Um, I find that Tibet is in such an interesting place being in between India, China, and central Asia, where it was able to absorb the medical traditions of India and then integrate aspects of the medical tradition of China as well. So, so I find actually that Tibetan medicines, almost the original integrated medicine, um, you know, where, where it took really w with a foundation of indigenous Tibetan tradition, as well as, as Indian medicine that came via Buddhism, it took a lot of aspects of ancient Greek medicine and as well as Chinese medicine and it created this very powerful system using that,
Speaker 1 00:05:00 Right? Yes. I remember when I used to translate for Dr. Um, you should done that years ago. Sometimes people would come from either acupuncture tradition, or I are very tradition and wanna know more about the urine analysis of Tibetan medicine, which I guess came to Persia by the linic tradition. Right?
Speaker 2 00:05:25 Yeah. Um, that, that is probably the, the dominant idea now that you're in analysis came via this Greek medicine, Greek Greco, Persian medicine. Um, but there likely was, um, indigenous Tibetan element in there as well. Um, perhaps related more to divination techniques and things like that through the year. Ah huh.
Speaker 1 00:05:51 That's really interesting. So, so, um, how do you see this interfacing when you teach, who are your students usually among Western errors and how do you see the interface of these classical traditional medicines with them, with what I call, um, well, I'm in a bad mood. I call it industrial medicine and I guess in a good model, I call it biomedical medicine. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:06:18 Sure. Yeah. In terms of the students that come through our courses, I mean, it's really the incredible charisma and magnetic personality of Dr. Nita that has built this amazing international organization called sorted con um, you know, which has branches and probably almost a hundred countries around the world. Um, and through that, there are so many different types of students. Um, you know, I mean ranging from Western medical doctors, to people in alternative medicine fields, to Buddhist practitioners that have no knowledge about medicine, to just general people looking to understand more about their bodies. Um, and somehow it, the same language works for everybody, especially in the beginning. Then there comes a point when yeah, you, it might need to be a more, the courses either become more clinically focused or more generalized or have more language specialization of one type or another. But, but it's amazing that, um, it, at least with this basic Tibetan medical training, I mean, it's really like, it's the fundamentals of just what it means to have a human body and, and even if you are, uh, have PhDs and, you know, biochemistry and are practicing medical doctors still, it's a different perspective.
Speaker 2 00:07:48 Um, and or likewise, if you have absolutely no medical background, we're all kind of starting at the same level. Um, and just understanding what is life in terms of the interface with contemporary medicine, you know, that's such a fascinating subject. Um, and of course the, the evolution of our contemporary medicine, I mean, how does say that the last hundred years, you know, there's, there's scientific development, but then there's also ideological economic sociopolitical influences that shape directions, that research and directions that, you know, standard doctrines evolve, um, have evolved in. And, um, I think right now is a very interesting time where much more than even, you know, a couple of decades ago, there is so much more openness to other medical systems or other medical perspectives. Um, and especially in younger generations of, of people that are learning medicine. Um, and likewise within the fields of Asian medicine, there is a big movement towards this integrative medicine model, which of course in my opinion, has a lot of problematic aspects to it as well.
Speaker 2 00:09:11 Um, which, which we can perhaps talk about a little later too, but, um, but I think in many ways there is research that's happening and there is, you know, for example, in, in many countries in the world, you can find medical doctors, practicing acupuncture, you can find acupuncture or other types of traditional Asian medical treatments present in modern hospitals. Um, herbal medicine is a little bit more tricky because it's using substances and, and people get nervous a little bit more about substances oftentimes, but, but if you look at just the body of research, that's out there, I mean, there's thousands and thousands of research studies on the effects of different plants, traditional herbal compounds and things like that. And, you know, and, and you can't argue with clear scientific data as well. So, so I see the future for, for Asian medicine as strong in that light of at least getting recognition of its efficacy and so on.
Speaker 1 00:10:16 No, that's great. Well, well, you are likely to make a big contribution to that still. I think you're young enough, you'll be able to let us ask it, let's turn a little bit back up and we can come back to some of these teams. Can you tell us a little about your own story? Like how your father was a medical doctor? I believe it may be grandfather who knows it's like a family lineage and you then turned to this new tradition instead of conventional medical school. And, uh, and that took quite fascinating. I think it's there. Can you give us a little, uh, little, um, sort of a synopsis of your own journey?
Speaker 2 00:10:52 Yeah, sure. Um, yeah, as you said, my, my dad was, um, he was a cardiologist. Um, and so I grew up in that world of, you know, he goes to the clinic and, you know, and there's that I had always that idea, oh, he's this guy who is doing some incredible kind of magic science, that's helping people, you know, and, and that always was nice. Um, but my grandpa wasn't a medical doctor. He was actually an economist in Germany. Um, and then, you know, world war two happened, he was in the Holocaust and then he, he, you know, lived through it with a very incredible story and, um, and then came to the U S but he was very, he was also very scientific. Um, so even when I was a child, you know, they would always be instilling these principles of doing science and experimentation.
Speaker 2 00:11:47 And, but I think my, my nature was much more, um, was looking at a little bit wider scope. And I was also very much interested in, you know, the spiritual and yoga traditions of the world. Um, and you know, it was actually a lot just in spending time in libraries and really exploring. I mean, I, I grew up in a very, you know, in a, you know, the, the outside of Chicago, um, in a place that was not really exposed to many things, but there were a lot of books. So I just dived into all the books that were in the library and found that actually these Asian, spiritual traditions and yoga traditions spoke a language that I understood. And, um, and then as time went on, you know, my, my interest develop more. I began to meet different teachers and learn different practices and start to study languages, um, spend time in Asia.
Speaker 3 00:12:50 And
Speaker 1 00:12:52 Was there a climactic moment or something where you didn't go to graduate school? Let's say in the U S right away, but first went to H w w when did you actually take the leap and head for India?
Speaker 2 00:13:05 Um, it was in the middle of my undergraduate studies, actually. I, um, I decided I just needed a shift of perspective and, um, so yeah, I worked for a while and saved up enough money to get myself to Asia and, um, yeah, and then my adventure. So what'd you around 20 then? 1920. Around 20, I believe. Yeah. Did you freak out? Yes. Um, they also, you know, it was the time where, where email was very challenging. Um, you know, so you'd go to these like dial up internet cafes, like environment or a place like that. And it, it, I mean, it would take 15 minutes to log in and then the power would go out, you know, and then to make the telephone call was extremely expensive. So they definitely didn't like the fact that I wasn't able to communicate very much. Um, but eventually I think they understood that I was pretty clear on this trajectory. Um, and actually all the things that I was studying when I was 20. I'm still studying now. I mean, I haven't really changed course much. Right. Yeah. So did
Speaker 1 00:14:20 You enroll, you enrolled in an official Ayurvedic school, right? Didn't you,
Speaker 2 00:14:24 Um, so with IRA Veda, um, my training was a little bit different. Um, I enrolled in, in Chinese medical school more formally, um, as Chinese medicine is the only Asian medical tradition that has legal recognition and has accreditation currently in the United States. Right. Right.
Speaker 1 00:14:48 Well, if we did that in the states, you came back and did that,
Speaker 2 00:14:52 Correct? Yeah, I did in San Francisco. So, you know, I did a master's in a doctoral program in Chinese medicine. So it was about a total of five, six years of study, um, you know, academic study to get sure that these things, but, um, but my training and I are medicine has, has been more in organizing courses with my teachers. Um, my, my late wife, um, was an Ayurvedic practitioner. And so she had originally studied in the U S at one of the colleges here. And then over the course of time felt she really wanted to deepen her study into the, like the deeper classical training. And so we found our teachers and I was able to join programs with, with groups of aggravating practitioners. And, um, and so through that, I developed my relationship with my IRA Vedic teachers who they're based in Poona in Maharastra in India and, uh, you know, and, and with them, you know, we really studied the classical text in Sanskrit and, and it's more of a living active tradition, but, um, but, but they're also, you know, they're also academics as well, so
Speaker 3 00:16:14 I'm sure did you
Speaker 1 00:16:16 Run into Roberts for Boda at that time and when, and, um, and Bombay,
Speaker 2 00:16:22 I, I have not, I have not interacted with, with him. No, I, I think he, I believe he studied in QA some decades. Yeah. And he was
Speaker 1 00:16:30 Enrolled, he was the first rest of her trading role there. I recently discovered him and I interested, sorry. Yeah. It's about, was not overlapping with you, I guess you were a bit later or it's your younger decades, right? Like with me that's right. How fascinating really? And then what ha what was the climatic moment where you met Dr. NIDA that I'm excited to hear about that?
Speaker 2 00:16:55 So I met Dr. Nita in 2006. Um, well first I think probably in 2002 or three. So Dr. Nita is a traditional Tibetan doctor he's from Northeastern Tibet, um, the area of Aldo, and then he was living in LASA in, um, you know, the nineties. He was, um, you know, he studied English there and in that process was invited to Italy to teach Tibet medical courses and you'll get courses in Italy. Um, so then that began his life in Europe. So he had already been living in Europe for some years, um, working with the <inaudible> organization. And, um, they had a center in Berkeley where, where I was living at the time. And so I really, I remember that he, um, was scheduled to teach a course there around maybe 2002 or three, um, which unfortunately had to get canceled. But I, I knew from the description that he was from the area of an area called Repco and my principal, I'm a teacher, I'm actually two of my important Dharma teachers were from that town, um, which is a very important town in Northeastern Tibet, especially for this Yogi tradition, but not the tradition.
Speaker 2 00:18:14 Um, so finally in 2006, when the circumstances aligned for me to be able to travel to Tibet for the first time and to China for the first time, um, I got Dr. Nita's email and I sent him a mail. Cause I knew he was from Repko. And I was actually just asking him his advice of, you know, places to visit, to, you know, meet some, some llamas or some doctors or someplace in the study. And, and he surprised me, he wrote me back and he said, oh, I'm there right now. I'll pick you up at the train station on this and this day.
Speaker 2 00:18:50 Good. So then, you know, I, I come up, I was in actually, yeah, I took the train up from Yunan and see Tron and then went to chin high to, um, you know, to, um, go. And so they picked me up and Nita, always jokes that he was shocked because he thought that my name is Erica and that I, he didn't know English names that well, I guess. And he thought that I was an American woman. And so he was very excited to welcome this American woman to ongo. And he was like, what? Who is this like, scruffy, but that's what he always does. He always jokes about that. Um, but yeah, then I spent, um, a few weeks with him in Aldo, um, in, in his hometown, in Malo. Um, it was actually around the time when, um, when his father was sick and was in the process of passing. So he, he had been in Europe for a long time, but he happened to then just be staying in Orlando and, um, yeah. And then he took me around and introduced me.
Speaker 1 00:19:52 She drove festival at that time when you were there,
Speaker 3 00:19:55 I, I
Speaker 2 00:19:57 Left. I was not there at that time of year. Um, but yeah, no, that tradition has been going on for quite some time. It's a big gathering of yogis to who do the ceremony of the Tibetan book of the dead and, oh, it's, it's really incredible. Um, and it just happened pretty recently. Um, but yeah, so then from there, my relationship with Dr. Nita kind of evolved, I brought him to the us for the first time and, um, yeah, the end of 2016. And then, you know, at that time he was a little less busy. So, you know, we were able to bring him a couple of times a year and, you know, spend quite a bit of time with him for quite a number of years. Wonderful,
Speaker 1 00:20:41 Man. I loved the guy. I really fell in love with him the minute I met him, but he, when you brought him actually to mid-block right. And, um, it was just wonderful. He came rushing up about how it meant law. He had, he's a geo men seat expert also, right? So he knows about Fung, Trey and this kind of thing. And he, he said, you have a turtle in the north and you have a white tiger at ease and you have a dragon in the south. You have a good Ruda in the west. He really set up, well here, it's a wonderful blah, blah. And I, it was just so sweet, really a marvelous Matt, and, um, uh, now you're, but you also teach very much on your own. You set up the school in, in Nepal for, to train. I spoke to vet and doctor.
Speaker 1 00:21:25 So what are you going to be teaching this fall? How are you going to do it? You know, I just had to say my own, uh, study of Tibet medicine has been absolutely poultry compared to Europe. And it really, I was ordered by my group to study it with you. She'd done that in the sixties. So maybe before you were born nine some decade. And, uh, and I was completely resistant. I didn't want to, I wanted to meditate it and realize emptiness and all this kind of thing. And, um, but he made me do it and I, then I got into it. And actually, uh, that was also after my halfway or three quarters of the way through college at that time when I was trying to be a mug. And, um, for the first time ever after all supposedly good schools, Western schools, best kind of education in America, supposedly if I had properly studied, it would have been maybe.
Speaker 1 00:22:21 And, uh, and, uh, I had no idea about my liver, my kidney, my heart. I didn't know what was going on in there. I paid no attention to my own body. And to me it was a revelation about like what the organs and the vessels and, you know, the terminology and the medical way of seeing things. And also of course connecting very much to the whole idea of compassion and therefore very much giving a deeper insight into the compassion nature of Tibetan culture. So are you going to be, when you deal with people who are complete greenhorns, so to speak, I guess you get into that to you or tell, tell us how you're going to be handling ignorant young Westerners. Like I was be a mixed audience. I imagine that'd be a mix. You would be teaching some, uh, uh, complimentary professionals as well, usually. Right. That kind of, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:23:18 Yeah. Typically it's pretty mixed, you know, especially with this introductory class. So, so what, what this course is, is, um, so this is, it's a 30 hour course and it's, it's the basic course that's offered in, in various configurations in all of the <inaudible> centers around the world. So, um, it's kind of like the, the introduction or the, you know, the, the door that opens you into this world of, of medicine. Um, and, um, the basis of the class is something called the <inaudible> or the root tantra, which is, um, a very, it's a very special text in the Tibetan medical tradition because it's very short, it's only, you know, 10, 15 pages long. And, but yet it's the seed of the entire system of Tibetan medicine. Um, so it's extremely profound yet. It's extremely simple. Um, so in that, it's a perfect kind of a framework to introduce the principles of the medicine for everybody.
Speaker 2 00:24:29 Um, you know, I think of it kind of like, um, it's, it's a different type of owner's manual for being incarnated in a human body, you know, and, and base in learning the basic dynamics of, you know, are, these are the ways we stay in balance. These are the ways we can go out of balance. And here's the basic principles of how to understand that. Um, so the, how the course works is we study three trees actually. Um, and that's this beautiful system developed, um, in Tibet where they design these trees. They're like a living outline of the whole system. So every principal will have a trunk with branches and leaves. And, and in, in understanding how these trees are structured, we understand about our body, what makes us sick, all of the different aspects of, you know, how sickness occurs and the body, um, what our body teaches, our bodily organs are constitutional and so on.
Speaker 2 00:25:37 Um, and then there's a tree of diagnosis, which is how we can learn, for example, to look at our own tongues, to look at our urine symptoms, pull sound analysis in a very simple, basic level that we can all use, which, you know, would be the foundation of learning the actual clinical practice. But, but it's also something very simple that we can all tap into. Um, and then finally, you know, the most useful part is the therapeutics. So in Tibetan medicine, we have four basic basic types of therapies we use. Um, we use a diet food lifestyle, which can include basically everything that we do, um, herbal medicine and then external therapies, which you know, is also a full spectrum from massage to okay. Share Mark's question. So this course is a very general introduction to how Tibetan medicine sees all of that.
Speaker 3 00:26:39 Wonderful.
Speaker 1 00:26:41 You can certainly testify. Know I did memorize that, uh, wrote tantra. I thought I did, but you know, 60 years ago, so I, it's not too fresh in my mind, but I did do it. And I passed the test of the labeling. All the leaves on the trees, I think are two hundred and twenty seven, two hundred. And what was it? I can't even remember the number. It was a 2 27. It that still the right
Speaker 3 00:27:03 Number. Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:27:07 And I remember because I passed that test and, um, and you know, I did not go on to be a physician, but what I can say is that it completely changed my life. And, uh, and, and, uh, and it definitely changed the way I experienced being in a body, a human body. And when I looked at others and when I, my children, my family, how they were and looking at their bodies and their lifestyle and the whole thing. And of course not to mention the very core thing, which is the core of Tibetan medicine, uh, which is the, um, centrality of compassion and the cultivation of compassion and everything, which maybe it was, I think my teacher who was very, um, had a lot of pre-cognition, a lot of it was very prophetic about my life. I considered him <inaudible> and then Julian attended Martinez, they'd say, uh, he, he, uh, he predicted so many things that happened in my life that have come true, that he forced me, or he told, made me do it, I think, because he saw how it would improve my life and it definitely changed my life. And so I could recommend it from personal experience that it has that effect, even though I wasn't going on. And of course, someone who has a medical professional east, west modern ancient, you know, whatever, uh, outlook or ambition, I can't think of, of how excellent it would be for them.
Speaker 2 00:28:39 Yeah, no, it's, it's really amazing like that. Um, and it's it. I think that I, I find off often times people are reluctant to jump into a completely new system or a completely new, complicated way of looking at things and even, and that's sometimes even more so for medical practitioners. Um, and I find that actually, especially this course on the root tantra or on, on this Tibetan medicine intro, um, it's simple enough where it's just a different perspective on what we already see. And, and I find for me, that's actually how to say the, the treating of patients is just, um, a bonus to understanding this view of how life works and how nature works and how the five elements work and how the different energies in our bodies work. And, and it's something very, it's experiential. It's not just something you read in a book and you memorize some lists. It's actually, you know, it's something that you become aware of aspects of your own experience. Um, and I find that that is one of the most satisfying things to me about working with this and sharing as well.
Speaker 1 00:30:06 That's horrendous, and you've told it many times, I think you're right. That's a very good approach. You have a very good curriculum, so to speak that you can follow with the, you know, to, to elucidate the root tantra in contemporary terms. If I, if I'm, if I'm about to
Speaker 3 00:30:23 Definitely
Speaker 2 00:30:25 I've, I've been working with, I've been working with this material for, for quite some time and, you know, and every time I presented it a little bit different, but yeah, it's, it's definitely, um, yeah, it's, it's fun. It's, it's, uh, it's a good opportunity to really just look at reality and look at life and to try to understand who we are and what our, what our life and the dynamics of our life means.
Speaker 1 00:30:49 That's really great. Now, let me ask you another thing about it, just which I'm very interested about. And I know now the root Tundra, the four Tundra system is it was created by, um, that you would talk to younger, I think right. Is the usual historical idea in the 13th century, is that right? 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries, the younger you talk you and then gumbo. Right. And, but he is, but in the root tantra, it's constantly referring to the stunts. I heard they are of sound script, but then a Bible. And that is said to be, but I've walked about time. Right. But from, I believe you, your view is, which I think is unlike me, I think you have their correct scholarly is that the VOC Balta version, the Indian version did not have the same structure organization as the root tantra. So that is a definite Tibetan innovation. Is that correct?
Speaker 2 00:31:55 Okay. So I think the tricky thing is this idea of <inaudible> right? The <inaudible> the eight branches. There is a text called the heart of the eight branches, which is a mid first millennium Ady Indian text. Um, that extremely influential, one of the most influential works of Indian medicine. So if you look at Indian medicine, you know, first there was this, you know, there's, what's called the Brie hot tray, the three important books, the Charaka Samhita <inaudible> and Charaka Samhita is so he's up
Speaker 1 00:32:42 There with her dad. I see. I mean, with the atomic on some heat. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:32:47 And in Charaka is very old and it's very big. And, um, its structure is very, um, it's actually this incredible structure, but it's, it's hard to make sense of the structure. Sometimes it takes a lot of understanding to, to really understand how it's, how it's structured and what VOD, but to do in creating the Ashtanga, who Diane was. He took the elements of Charaka and that he really synthesized it into beautiful Sanskrit verse. And it's very terse. It's very, it's a little less, less of a philosophical exposition than you find in charcoal, but it's, it's very, um, it's extremely practical, clear, and in beautiful, poetic sense. Great. So, so then it became the third of the most important irrigating texts. Um, and then, so also the story of OD butter was that, um, you know, by some accounts he was a Brahman by birth and then became a Buddhist.
Speaker 2 00:33:51 So his tradition also is very much linked to the tradition of Indian Buddhist medicine. And, um, and that tradition was also very strong in cashmere, you know, in ninth, 10th, 11th century, when a lot of manuscripts and masters went to Tibet and this great translation movement with wrench and sample and so on, right? So therefore there's a few of the commentaries and the tenure and the Tibet and Canon, and, you know, in this Ashtanga free day, I became translated in, in very influential in Tibetan medicine in 10th century. So then you took in the 12th century, um, you know, the story is that there was a version of these four tantras that was existing in Tibet. That was brought earlier by the great translator, vital China, um,
Speaker 1 00:34:50 In Indian language in Sanskrit. So
Speaker 2 00:34:54 That, that is the story, but there's been, and it was then hidden as a Terma as a hidden treasure insomnia monastery in a pillar. And then this great Yogi dropped on one, she retrieved, it had a vision to retrieve this four tantras and then it got passed on to the Utah family. So, so that's the story, um, you know, historians debate over it. And I think it's not, it's only speculation to know whether or not there was a sense Britain manuscript called the four tantras. I know that right now we don't have one. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:35:30 Well, we don't have one at the moment. It might be in a pillar
Speaker 2 00:35:34 Exactly. Bulldoze a pillar and we'll find out they were right. All along. Um, but, but if we look at this, I should Hunger-Free data. Um, there are a lot of elements in it that are virtually identical to the four ton trades. Um, yeah, of course the four tantras expands on that a lot and the four tantras of restructures and reorganizes and then adds a lot of additional elements. And then deep herbs that are used are, are more specific to the Tibetan plateau. There's more pull gnosis, there's a lot of things, um, that, that developed from that. But from my perspective, this Ashtanga free day is a very important, um, you know, a very important source or a very important texts to understand Tibet medicine. Um, right, right.
Speaker 1 00:36:31 So here's may at me, I speculate for a second. I have this idea, you know, because of his holiness, the Dalai Lama, his fourth aim in life of bringing back to India, it's the fullest dimension of India to own what he called, what, what they themselves called inner science, you know, adapt nothing. Yeah. You know, Nan, get it back. And that, uh, which, and the medicine is the first of the outer sciences sort of the bridge between the, the inner science and the outer science, you know, that sort of enlightenment liberation seeking science and the outer side. And so if you look and it's, I, I didn't ever know, you just know it for me. I learned now this minute from you that the work of the eight branch essence or heart was one of the three top Ayurvedic things in the paramedical tradition. So that strengthens my speculation, that the aspect that the two-bedroom version shows, shows how this comes straight out of the Buddha's heart and even his whole nervous system, you could say, you know, the medicine, Buddha, the idea of the medicine, Buddha being a healing engine and his nervous system irradiating these different trunk drives, you know, the charts are heart chakra, throat trucker, brain chakra, navel chakra about cetera.
Speaker 1 00:37:56 And so the Brahmans needing and using this wonderful thing once, especially once the Buddhist libraries were all burned by outside invaders and the main repositories of texts were massively burned, then they would not like the idea that this thing that's connecting with their gods, you know, the paramedical things, you know, like, like Chuck or something, he turns to shoot to some heat, et cetera. They wouldn't like them suddenly being presented as emerging from the Buddha. Do you know what I mean? And to graphic away and even I'm sure they argue that Barbato, wasn't really a Buddhist and that's some later people saying it because they got so much after the loss of Buddhism in India and the 11th century and 12th century, they got very much into sort of wiping out its traces. If you could say it was just a side thing, it was never a real per medical thing because of Buddhism disliking the caste system.
Speaker 1 00:38:54 And so, and then second, the Tibetans would have a motive maybe after, after you took out the gumball, they would, they would not him, but after him, some of them might have a motive to want to say, well, this is our thing, you know, after they're sort of more remote from the translation period where they saw India as the source of all and the Buddha as all the source of everything he got into more, this is their own revelation. Do you know what I mean? So between those two motives of all the scholars involved there, mate, we can still hold out hope that there, that this is an ancient Buddhist contribution, even in Indian culture and the way that it comes out of the, I mean, even the definition in the four tantras that health is actually enlightenment finally. And there's ultimately, it's, it's a balance of potential diseases and ills and things that called suffering the ordinary unenlightened person, but that still can be healthy at great costs because Buddha never said the unenlightened life was not worth living. He wanted to make it live them. So they began becoming light. So this is my speculation. And I think you maybe don't agree with me, but, but maybe you will think about it. What is it,
Speaker 2 00:40:15 Um, how to say it? I think in, in every time in every place, in every culture, there are people that want to really assert their own group or try or sect superiority over others. And then there are those that are less motivated that have that as less of a motivating factor. Right. So of course, I think both within the, the Indian tradition as well as in the tradition, for sure. You'll find elements of that. Um, I think in the case of the Ashtanga free Daya that the essence of the eight branches, um, it is so clearly a syncretic text. I mean, so it was written in the goop dote period, um, you know, late first, mid to late first millennium Ady. And, um, it was a time where Buddhism and Hinduism were really coexisting as Indian systems and systems of thought and belief and so on.
Speaker 2 00:41:16 So in the <inaudible>, I mean, there's actually two versions, there's a longer version and there's a shorter version. Um, you know, there are prayers to the medicine Buddha, there are, there are very clear mantra, prayers inside. Yeah. Um, and there are also prayers and references to Vedic type of practices as well. So, you know, I think it's important to, to note that in the world of what you can say, these sciences or outer sciences, perhaps sectarian divisions are less important, um, or were less important at that point in time. Um, within contemporary scholarship of <inaudible>. I mean, it's, I, I've not heard of people trying to refute the idea that, um, that, uh, was, was a Buddhist. I mean, that's, that's part of the lore of his life. Um, and, and there's, I believe pretty clear scriptural attestations to that. Um, and you know, the place where it's like, it's really strong, for example, in Carola Carola, there's a lot of people that really just follow the <inaudible> tradition. Um, I'd love to, I haven't had the good fortune. Yeah. Um, and, and in other parts of India as well, I mean, in, in the, what became the standardized <inaudible> curriculum every day is a very important part of learning the principles of, of Indian medicine. Right. So, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:43:00 Well, I mean, that's one question then in the, the three main, um, uh, uh, what do sacral Waldorf shots, you know, how are we going to translate it's humor? We say humor, but I don't think that's really correct, but anyway, the three, let's say the three humors then, and they're in alignment with the three poisons of Buddhism or desire, hatred and delusion or ignorance with, um, with the value was wind, uh, bile and flat. And, uh, is that in this shoot, there's some heater and the Charaka Samhita and that clear and completely graphic her manner.
Speaker 2 00:43:42 I, not to my knowledge in that kind of systematic way. Um, but you do find, yeah. I mean, there's yeah. The three poisons or five poisons doctrine you do find also references to that. I mean, even in yoga literature, in India and things as well, um, as our four immeasurables, the Brahma Viharas, and it was a sink, you know, there were, there was a lot of cross-pollination, you know, when, when different people share land and language and so
Speaker 3 00:44:17 On sushi
Speaker 2 00:44:19 To some HiTA is a fascinating one, which is the second of the, the important, um, three IRP texts, because the shooter was actually redacted by Nagarjuna.
Speaker 3 00:44:31 So, you know,
Speaker 2 00:44:33 In, in Vedic understanding, there is a great reverence. I mean, Nagarjuna is really considered the founder of Indiana alchemy, um, you know, at least in the human level. Um, you know, so, so I don't see necessarily that much sectarianism in, from my perspective, in my experience, but I'm sure it exists. I mean, people, right? For example,
Speaker 1 00:44:56 Well, tell me, this is the Nagarjuna texts, medical texts that we have in the Tibetan Canada. Are there current Sanskrit versions that, that there I are Vedic people in India who don't know that much about Tibet. Let's say, I mean, I'm not putting them down for them. Just say just don't because there's been only recent interconnection again, but are there versions that circulate and are published in India that people read of those books or are they lost? So
Speaker 2 00:45:24 Of the, um, so of the nuggets and the texts in medical texts in the tenure, in the Buddhist Canon, um, there's one called the Jeep of Sutra. There's one called the yoga shot DACA. Um, I believe those are the two important ones in the medicine division. Um, the yoga shot, Tucker, I believe one, um, Indian scholar by the one does he attempted to translate it back from the Tibet?
Speaker 1 00:45:55 Cause it didn't exist, but he did do that. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:45:59 You know, the Jeeva Sutra, I believe that's what it's called. I, there may be a Sanskrit version. I I'd have to double check and we'd have to, I'd have to
Speaker 3 00:46:10 Check. Right,
Speaker 1 00:46:11 Right, right. That is so interesting. Eric really, you're still earning, you're teaching me these things. So this is Ruta was organized by Nagarjuna. That is incredible to me. I'm amazed.
Speaker 2 00:46:24 Yeah. But interestingly enough, there is no, it doesn't pay to <inaudible>.
Speaker 1 00:46:30 There is no time spent in translation with the shooter. Did some heater. Yeah. Not
Speaker 2 00:46:34 That I've ever seen. I mean, of course so much was lost. Right. But in terms of the important medical texts, really there's no threes even know Charaka Samhita that I'm aware of. There's some references to verses in Charaka, but um, you know, director some Peter's a really big book and I think
Speaker 1 00:46:55 Was that, well, I sort of have looked at that, well, we need a project. You must help us organize a project. And I actually, I, over the many decades that I've been working on these things, I have had inquiries from, um, donors, patrons, oh, I would support a translation of all the medical texts about blah blah, but I've never had either the people able to do it or the organizational structure to be able to even receive it. And so somehow they petered out, you know, and of course one never knows. Sometimes people were warm and do something and they don't follow through. So, but I'm saying, I think it's a very organizable thing to create such a fee in the coming years before I crowed. Hopefully if I can say at least a little longer and a, and I really want to do it, and I would really look to you to help do that because you, I think you're one of the most important young authorities and wide, or I say that, well, there are people like Kenneth Zendesk and others who have written about iRead on blah, blah, blah, who are in academia.
Speaker 1 00:47:57 But the point is you are in clinical yourself and you also know the languages, but you are not stuck in having to do this and that, uh, academically. And so in, in the waste of time that they make you do in your academia, working on some historical issues and date. And so I think you are, you're a great hope in this, um, in the future, in addition, of course, to healing people in your life, I can see that in the future, I'd really like to, so I'm planting this as an intention and a prayer that we think about doing this. And I would read your, I would wager that the vision of the medicine teaching, uh, coming out of the Buddha's sort of presence in the universe, uh, is there's a version in India, more close to <inaudible> juniors, uh, version, uh, than, than the existing, uh, Tonga.
Speaker 1 00:48:59 I heard. I, uh, that is sort of, as you say, syncretic, wanting to fit in with the Brahmins because the group that you're a, you know, mid first millennium, was it, was he at the time of the same credit connection of what is, um, Hinduism, so to speak, although vice, it was a bit shy. I was embarrassed to say mainly, but, uh, on the other hand, it was when the vice emphasis shows that when the tide was kind of asserting itself in a very strong way, because I think there was a long phase during the <inaudible> period of, uh, political rule, but a long phase from the beginning, from the time of Nagarjuna to then about four centuries, four or five centuries, where most of the really high level Brahmins were in the Buddhists academic institutions and the, and the Indian Kings were not necessarily creating the patronage to have schools around their ministries.
Speaker 1 00:49:58 They had people Brandon's working for their ministries, you know, ministry of education of military affairs, of agriculture, et cetera, but they didn't really keep schools and poetics. And so they left out to the Buddhist universities. And so a lot of the really top intellectual promise, I think, worked as Buddhists. There's a huge thing you see in every field, like the logic field, you know, if I chase your car or <inaudible> where they, they hark back to suit jaws made it almost in Buddha's time or a little after Buddha, and then they referred to commentaries, but there's no texts that anybody else knows and no author, because it seems that all of the, in the growing authors, you know, a song, uh, you know, that's about undo. These kind of people were all, they were province too, but they were working in the Buddhist schools like they were going to the Harvard of the time or the Oxford at the time, which was the Buddhist university.
Speaker 1 00:50:53 So, uh, so look does where there's a Bhutan. There could have been, in other words, the precedent to mark Botox like his grandfather or great-grandfather who might've had such a text that inspired mark about how to pull together the, the <inaudible> things that were acceptable to the more Vedas oriented people. And he had kept the principals going through that and that the, the models that, that, uh, that then the Tibetans retrieve or recreate from the meeting, the board of medicine, but I, in meditation let's say, or whatever, uh, there may have been Indian versions of it. Anyway, that's the hope of my, my fantasy, you know?
Speaker 2 00:51:33 Yeah. I mean, it's definitely, it is surely a possibility that, um, you know, the four tantras, you know, that we'll find some other manuscripts relating to it. Um, you know, so, but, but also from, from my perspective, is that, is that, that doesn't really matter. Um, you know, so, um, Dr. Nita, his teacher, his name was Kemba Trudeau it's in him. And he was one of, you know, possibly the greatest Tibetan doctor in that stayed in Tibet in the 20th century who really revived the tradition. He was at
Speaker 1 00:52:11 Blossom NZ con I think. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:52:14 And, and he basically revived Tibetan medicine after the end of the cultural revolution. Um, when, when China started to open back up to these things, he treated me, oh,
Speaker 1 00:52:27 I had a treatment from him. He burned the living out of my knee after taunting me that I probably couldn't take it. So he couldn't do something that I really needed and really helpful to me. Every game he would give me some medicine and I said, no, no, I can take it. I can take it because I was desperate leading a hiking group around Mount Kailash on my way, my knee completely went out in the most horrible way. Like I was limping and crutching and it was really bad. And so he put this thing on the knee, underneath the nearby, the knee cap, but a little below it, you know, and, and burned it right on the skin. And I was as how, as he predicted. And I was frankly wanting to scrape it off, but I restrained myself and actually it fixed the deep bang. And I was hiking like really amazing. I couldn't believe it. You know, I read about it in the book, but I was not believing it.
Speaker 2 00:53:28 So that's, that's traditional Tibetan. Moxibustion, that's, that's the original type of moxibustion, which is very strong. You know, I mean, these days in the west, even in India, people will often do more gently, but, you know, for people with strong bodies and who are able to tolerate it, it can be so effective. It can be,
Speaker 1 00:53:53 It was terrible, but it actually worked on their hand at work, no pain. That's part of the knowledge, you know, pain been makes sense signals throughout the nervous system in the body and draws enzymes and draws. I dunno what all, and all I said, new cells, stem cells, maybe, and things, and suddenly rebuild things in a rapid manner that when we try to constantly anesthetize ourselves, we had been taking a lot of slow things or never really recovered, you know?
Speaker 2 00:54:21 Sure. Definitely. Actually, if I could just add one thing that maybe we could place him to the thing before, um, just all right. So in the context of, um, the four tantras as, you know, finding, and we can find, and possibly an Indian source of the four tantras, and of course that would validate it being Indian. Um, but if you look at the Tibet and literature, even Kempo charter had sent, um, you know, Dr. Nita is great teacher. Um, he had this idea that the 14 inches, we can see it as comma Terma and duck now, which is a very NEMA kind of thing, right. That it's like the common tradition, like there was actually a text that would have been passed on, and then it's also a tear, right? It's a hidden treasure in the sense that, you know, it was brought to two bed hidden in the pillar recovered by the great Yogi drop on one sheet and Sean.
Speaker 2 00:55:22 Right. Um, but it's also, and I think most importantly in my view is a pure vision. So, you know, you told <inaudible> who we haven't really talked about very much in, in this discussion. You know, he was, he was a great master. Um, he was a great Dharma practitioner, as well as an incredible doctor. And, you know, he was said to have traveled by, he went to India. Many times, you went to China, you went to Persia, um, and learned, learned medicine, men, all of these great doctors had transcend transcendent kind of visions and so on. Um, and you know, to say that our version of the four tantras was utopia, regulatory vision, doesn't make it any less valid. Um, I agree. I agree. And sort of the intersection between, as you were talking about Bob dislike, the spiritual science, the <inaudible>, the inner science and these outer sciences like medicine, and so on, you know, from my perspective, you took, did this incredible service of, of really teaching both together where they are very much a medical text.
Speaker 2 00:56:49 You know, there's some, dharmic kind of elements in it, but it's very clear, you know, this is a disease, this is how you treat it. You know, there's, there's aspects of Buddhism, but it's, you know, it's a, it's a medical, it's a medical show, stress and medical texts. And then his other book, the you tokening tick is these inner meditation practice that healers or doctors can do to learn, to, to have their practice of medicine, connect to their spiritual path and develop these qualities within themselves. And, and to awaken the four doctors and to weaken the news inside themselves and so on. Right. So, so I see it as you know, this because the four Tundras are an expression of the wisdom of medicine, Buddha, and it's through Utah that that came. So whether or not an, uh, Palm leaf manuscript ever comes, that is the four tantras or not, to me, it doesn't give any less validity to the texts and transmission that we have.
Speaker 3 00:57:54 So for sure,
Speaker 2 00:57:56 I mean, and actually speaking of that, Bob law in, um, in the <inaudible>, there is a text which is foggy, but does sell auto commentary to the eight branches, which is something that no longer in Sanskrit. Yeah. So that, that's a fascinating, but to look at also, um, oh God critical. The <inaudible> like the words Judea,
Speaker 1 00:58:21 The Sapphire, or do people still in, since I'm translating the lipids,
Speaker 2 00:58:27 I just say by Doria, that's a whole other, that's a whole other,
Speaker 1 00:58:31 I it's just, it has to be so far who's, it has to be a barrel, which therefore is translucent. It's not completely opaque, you know, but anyway, nevermind.
Speaker 2 00:58:40 And actually it should be a star Sapphire, a staff fire that has that like an iridescence in it. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:58:48 Sure. I go, so
Speaker 2 00:58:52 I drew you the word that has many different connotations for sure. That's a whole, I know,
Speaker 1 00:58:57 But I don't like that because it's simply I'll pay. Yeah. So when does the course start? Uh, um, um, uh, Eric?
Speaker 2 00:59:10 Yes. So, so this course is, um, so it's offered online and it's going to be two days a week for the whole month of September. Oh, great. Um, and I believe it's possible. I mean, it's ideal to join it live, but I believe it's possible to, um, to do it as a, you know, to start in the middle and catch up or to do it as a distance learning.
Speaker 1 00:59:33 Wonderful. I see. So you're not, you will be coming. We won't have the pleasure of hosting you at Menlo for a hybrid until <inaudible>,
Speaker 2 00:59:42 I, I may be, I may happen to be at Menlo around that same time. So we'll see. No, go ahead.
Speaker 1 00:59:51 Yeah. So then it could be a hybrid. Some shooter could find you at Menlo, maybe. Yeah. Potentially.
Speaker 3 00:59:58 Oh, that'd be, it would be
Speaker 1 01:00:01 A hybrid, you know, it's amazing what, what Riverside and zoom have enabled to happen now with just so terrible, terrible catastrophe of the COVID. But, um, yeah, it's been, it's been, it's been upping our game. Everyone has had to up their game in a certain way, learning and teaching and managing, and it's part of the catastrophe. And it's good that we learn to deal with catastrophes because they're more, I hope to fire your, you say safe, I pray that you stay safe, please invoke as a fireman, the fire, it is up there in grass valley, you know, you and you and Dave, you know, I really hope, you know, uh, Greenville is that far from you? I hope not near
Speaker 3 01:00:44 Greenville
Speaker 1 01:00:46 Greenville, apparently it's one town of 13, 1400 people that was completely wiped out up in Northern, you know, in that area.
Speaker 2 01:00:55 I'm not sure, but I mean, I'm, I'm looking out my window and the sky is white from smoke. Yeah. That's
Speaker 1 01:01:03 Three towns. There have been in the last week. There are three towns went totally under, I mean, a hundred percent, not just a couple of houses,
Speaker 3 01:01:11 Completely worked out. I'm so
Speaker 1 01:01:13 Worried about it. Really. I may have to pray, pray for your target and then gumbo I've made it simple. Please send the rain. But the last thing, you know, then the people studying with you and yogis and people who've maybe like me, oh, I want to meditate. And I don't want to learn about medicine. You know, like I was in 1964 when my wise Mongolian guru teacher, he never wanted to be my girl. So he refused to be good, but here's my spiritual friend. Let's say virtual mentor, Hey, are they, they will learn a lot about their meditating and about the Dharma and about how it connects to the body. And, you know, in Zen they say, you have to learn to meditate with the body. You have to read with the body and they say, well, be nice to know what your body is. <inaudible>,
Speaker 3 01:02:08 What's that? Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:02:10 So, so that is, I think that's a really important point of, um, when Dharma traditions get translated, there are other aspects of culture which have, were not necessarily translated. And I think the establishment of various Dharma traditions in the west, without, for example, the medical traditions or some of the other cultural, social elements, there's, there's elements that are missing that are just implied. Um, and yeah, definitely in, in this course, it is. And especially so, so this course is actually the first module of what is a four-year Tibetan medicine training program. Um, and then as the modules go on, then things get more elaborated and go deeper into the study of understanding the body and the body's energetics and so on. Um, but yeah, in this tradition, there is, there's also a lot of, um, discussion on what types of meditation affect our body and our energy and our minds in different ways.
Speaker 2 01:03:24 And I think that context can be a very useful thing, whether for yoga practitioners, meditators, even athletes in general, we need, there's a certain language of understanding the qualities of our health and qualities of our life, which is often missing. Um, and, and it's, it's quite simple actually, you know, just understanding the five elements and hot and cold and the three humors and, and even on a basic level, then we can choose what type of practice to do or what type of food to eat or, or other ways we can simply adjust our lifestyle, um, and adjust our life to, to enable us to, to be more effective and to, to live in health.
Speaker 1 01:04:10 Wonderful. Well, Dr. Eric Rosen Bush, thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. I learned some really good things. I think from you just this, I wish I had time to take the course. Maybe I'll try to drop in since it'd be online. I can try to listen in here on the arrow to refresh my mind about that and learn some new things. And everyone is welcome to join this. And you sign up to Menlo online, I guess, is the main way you do the www memla.org, uh, and slash online. Uh, I think something like that. Okay. And, um, and then you can, you can have a life-changing way of re envisioning your body with this study with my venerable friend and teacher of this medical tradition, Dr. Eric Rosen Bush. And thank you so much for giving us your time and this friendly, wonderful conversation. Okay.
Speaker 2 01:05:11 Thank you so much, Bob. It was, it's always such a pleasure to see you and thank you for taking the time to speak with me and for embarrassing me I'm I will, there is very much the other way around. I am very much your student. No,
Speaker 1 01:05:28 No, no, no, no. You're my teacher, you know, the point is everyone can't be a teacher, but when you have great knowledge like you do, and a great heart in the knowledge and your connection to it. And this is like a huge thing. The Western doctors, they don't realize that becoming a doctor is this spiritual training and they should realize that. And then how are we going to have a decent health system? It isn't just changing the Medicare. It's like doctors themselves, when they're educated, they should be cultivating their wisdom and compassion. There's a scientific element in that that is really critical to them. And you really do teach that and you you're exemplified in your life. And, um, I, therefore I'm honored and we add med log and Tibet house, or honor that you teach with us and for us, and um, we are happy to introduce this to, to the students. Okay. So all the best. Okay. Okay, Justin, I think that's it.
Speaker 0 01:06:47 The Bob Thurman podcast is brought to you in generous support of the Tibet house, us Menlo membership, community, and listeners. Like these distributed, you're a creative commons, new derivatives license. Please feel free to share like, and post on your favorite social media platform. Tashi. Thanks for tuning in.
