Flowing Through the Knots : Buddha & The Yogis – Ep. 26

Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to my Bob Thurman podcast. I'm so grateful. Some good friends enabled me to present them to you. If you enjoy them and find them useful, please think of becoming a member of Tibet house us to help preserve Tibetan culture. Tibet house is the Dal Lamas cultural center in America. All best wishes. Have a great day. Speaker 1 00:00:26 This is episode 26 titled flowing through the knots. Speaker 2 00:00:34 So as the chief of, so this is again, our, our Naga Metha as the chief of snakes supports the earth with all of the mountains and forests. Um, so all the tantras rest on Kini, all the yoga TTRA, um, all the yogas of TTRA in many ways of yoga Tron, uh, rest on KHI, Speaker 3 00:00:59 But it's not the vertebra column. Speaker 2 00:01:02 No, Speaker 3 00:01:04 That, but your bones. Yeah. Okay. Speaker 2 00:01:08 Lively bones. Speaker 3 00:01:09 It's the energy actually KHI means the swirling. Speaker 2 00:01:13 Yeah, the KLE, the coil Speaker 3 00:01:15 It's a coil yeah. Swirling coiling. Speaker 2 00:01:18 And usually K not Kini, usually called Speaker 3 00:01:22 KK. KHI right. Yeah. One of the important protectors in the Mongo's name is Erta the swirl of Alexia Erta Alexio. Okay. Speaker 2 00:01:58 So this is when the SOTA, when Supta, uh, it's awakened ly is awakened by the guru Prade or the, the grace or kindness of the guru. Um, and then all of the puts or all of the lotuses are, are all the knots in the lotuses are pierced. Um, and so this is probably very important. Um, of course this, um, Speaker 3 00:02:35 <laugh> Speaker 2 00:02:38 So rather than this being kind of a mechanical process in which you, uh, you know, out of having a very secure ego, you really practice and practice your moods and Fondas every day mm-hmm <affirmative> and you H in your puff and your body build, and, uh, then you, uh, try to master pun Delini mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, usually you end up, uh, going insane by doing that. Yes. Um, and so it, the actual thing that, uh, is the movement of pun Delini is what would we say, facade or Speaker 3 00:03:19 Gus grace Speaker 2 00:03:20 Gurus, grace, or kindness. And so it's really a matter of devotion. Um, mm-hmm <affirmative> and I like to say if, if UND KLI is a goddess mm-hmm <affirmative> and, uh, she's quite shy. And, uh, she doesn't like to be bossed around, particularly by, uh, just an ego structure Uhhuh. Um, and so all you can do is send her an invitation and, uh, then arrange certain circuitry, you know, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's just like, Speaker 3 00:03:54 Well, I actually loosen circuitry. Speaker 2 00:03:56 Yeah. Loosen unravel, you know, you make a few connections, you plug into public service. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, unless you're, you know, off the Speaker 3 00:04:02 Grid from, from, Speaker 2 00:04:03 And you gotta use solar or something <laugh> but then, and you do the wiring, you know, hopefully sometimes you gotta get, you know, the wiring has to be correct. So that, but until you plug in the whole system, it's quite useless. Yes. And so there's an obsession with like piping and wiring and, uh, but piping is useless unless you hook it up to the water main. Speaker 3 00:04:27 Right. Although what, what thing, the worst thing, I mean, that is, I don't know if this, this, I don't think that's a point of disagreement, but the Buddhist thing says that those lotuses at each place, the five of them up to, I mean, they're a different system, but what five there's a knot around the central channel of the two, right. And left channels are noted once at the genital Naval throat and brain, and three times at the heart, therefore six times at the heart chakra. And you have to loosen those knots and that that's where your, your bun does and all of your grand unraveling and loosening work. Because otherwise, if you try to press pressure, or even if Kini, if a guru sort of invited Kini and that tremendous energy of co would go, they'd say that where you go insane is that that energy would come. And because it would be blocked by the knot, it would go into the knot. The char would not, and make a bubble like a kind of bubble trap there or something like that. And then you get nuts. You get, then that's what that is. And then you come and say, yeah, so you can loosen what you can Speaker 2 00:05:37 Do, right. So you can get flow through the knot. And what are the knots are, are really, um, there's some scar. And they're an overlay of, um, basically, uh, things that don't have to be stuck together. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> basic idea of some scar is you have a sensation pattern or a pattern in the pro, and then it's overlaid with memory and ideas. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and those memories and ideas, trigger story patterns. And in terms of, especially the heart knots, mm-hmm, <affirmative> these have to do with lust, anger, greed, uh, vanity selfishness, uh, I forget what, you know, all of those, the six enemies that's surrounded, mm-hmm <affirmative> and all of these are relationships. And so they're huge history. Mm-hmm <affirmative> around each knot. And so if you energize the knot, basically with this vibrant, um, or some people like they like to scare people away, it's like lava, you know, hot lava, Speaker 3 00:06:42 Dog lava. Speaker 2 00:06:43 Oh. People say it's like pouring lava into a styrofoam cup too. And I don't know, but anyway, when you, and it's just like, you start hitting the, the sun scar, you hit the knot mm-hmm <affirmative> and the knot has probably reflected myofascially, you know, it's in the it's in how you move it's in how you posture the body. It's in how you perceive cuz there areas of the breath areas of the body that you can't really feel because they reminded you of something you don't want to be reminded of. And then to start waking up the energy through the application of these, it hits some scars, these big knots and it aggravates the situation mm-hmm <affirmative> to the point of you you'll go crazy in your particular unique way that you're already crazy. <laugh> it'll just make you more crazy. Speaker 3 00:07:37 Can, can I write, ask another question? Yeah. In the case of the, uh, in the case of the bud is view of this. Yeah. In order to open the nods enough to be able to have energy in the central channel, you know, either ly coming from above or they, they may not only exclusively identify it with that, but that's a very important one. Um, they, you have to understand selflessness without understanding self. In other words, a not also is associated with the ego, the absolutization or the legitimation of the ego mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, positioning the ego pose, let's call it. And so that has to be relaxed through and which can only be done by understanding that it is, it is hollow in the center, like a it's a it's a rope wrapped around itself that has no core seems to be have core inside, but it Speaker 2 00:08:32 Doesn't, it's like a slip now. Speaker 3 00:08:33 Right. So now although the language in, so therefore if that is so then Tundra yoga is my question. Tundra. Yoga could not become prevalent in badest India, as well as Buddhist unless Viant had already occurred. Yes. Yeah. Where by Viant they were into saying that Panama Optima was none of this ordinary Optima. Yeah. Is that fair? Yeah. So anyway, it's on Optima. Speaker 2 00:09:03 Same. There's an interesting definition of uh, Aham car. Yes. Uh, it's called the Chi Che GTI. Okay. So it's a knot in which, uh, that, which is pure luminous consciousness or awareness right. Is tied up with that, which is not a Chi or that, which is okay. Appears to have a separateness okay. Or self, and that forms a knot. Yes. And that's basically ego Speaker 3 00:09:30 Function. That's a self other division over intensifying it. Speaker 2 00:09:35 Right. And so, Speaker 3 00:09:36 But that's really key. Speaker 2 00:09:38 That's totally key because if you look at the VA practices, um, you'll say in the VAD hymns, a lot of, you know, trippy stuff mm-hmm <affirmative> to use the term. Um, but they were taking drugs, you know, these sure. Soma and Speaker 3 00:09:52 Soma, Speaker 2 00:09:53 But it wasn't until the time of the early ESADE and the Viant that philosophically, they were specifically pointing out the, the selfless nature mm-hmm <affirmative> of the self or the selfless nature of reality. And this is when the VADK tradition was merging with those traditions that surrounded the VAD culture. Right. The other guys Speaker 3 00:10:18 Shaman. Yeah. Shaman. The tradition. Yeah. The vacationers. Speaker 2 00:10:22 Yeah. The vacationers, the Gamas, the, those people who were steeped in practice, but weren't necessarily ramens or right. And, uh, this is how yoga evolved and yoga is mm-hmm <affirmative> and you know, the early, so the first book to be called a TTRA is the, uh, sunk mm-hmm <affirmative> the, what sunk Speaker 3 00:10:44 San KA called Speaker 2 00:10:45 T Tundra. Really? I didn't know that. And what it points out what that particular book is emphasizes at the end. People don't read to the end, they get Bo down. Can't stand it, toss it before they is. That Perusia is not actually a thing, but Perusia is selflessness. Oh, good. And just pure awareness Uhhuh. So ultimately the nature of PROI is selflessness. Right. And so that system would then allow for the deep practices mm-hmm <affirmative> of yoga, which, um, in which your socks get knocked off, basically mm-hmm <affirmative> uh, and, but, so there'll be no fear. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because there's no dualism. Um, and so one of the ways that, Speaker 3 00:11:28 But San character still promotes a strong dualism, like yoga Speaker 2 00:11:32 Should not, if you study it deeply, really? In other words, it's a, it's a, okay. Yeah. This is my, uh, okay. Thesis. Okay. Alright. Speaker 3 00:11:40 It's Speaker 2 00:11:40 But it, most people read it as dualistic because they're lazy. Right. Speaker 3 00:11:46 But even, but, but in a way, see, even Buddhism is allowing dualism at the time. Yeah. Because dualism the very self-centered person, if you tell the very self-centered person that, you know, you can just merge with all this. You're one with it, all. You're one with your wife, you're one with the lower cast people. You're one with, therefore you, you could wash the dishes yourself. And if you tell 'em that, that, that they can, that if they enjoy that, they can be liberated while washing the dishes. They're not gonna go for that. Speaker 2 00:12:19 No, they don't want a demotion. Speaker 3 00:12:21 No. So, so therefore if you let them think, oh, you can have an Irvana and you'll never have to see the kitchen <laugh> then they'll make a big effort to get there. And when they get there, then they find out there's no self to grab it and then they'll be ready to work, Speaker 2 00:12:37 Then they'll be ready. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:12:39 So, so I'm, you know, so maybe the sun camp people copy line company, or, you know, the Speaker 2 00:12:45 Great company, they were non-dual list, but yeah. They followers, you know. Yeah. Okay. They get those. Speaker 3 00:12:50 So that way I can incorporate Speaker 2 00:12:51 That. Yeah. So these early systems use metaphor and of course people don't. Speaker 3 00:12:55 Yeah. Well, but I mean, don't, Niana Niana is like, yeah, sure. Same time, 500 BCE. And even he said, cuz he was a sociologist. He said, I don't want this non-dualism widely spread about 400 years from now that NA guy will show up and he will, he will spread my non-dual thing. But for about four centuries, these people need dualism, these Indian people Speaker 2 00:13:21 To get a basis. Yeah. Now an interesting thing when the knots, one of the methods of dealing with the knots, right. Um, is to practice, uh, a kind of mindfulness with them. Yeah. In which you mm-hmm <affirmative> observe the knot mm-hmm <affirmative> as visioning. Speaker 3 00:13:40 Oh. Speaker 2 00:13:41 So you, you concentrate on your heart and if you really see what's, there is some initially there's this coating of a yucky feelings and memories and yeah. Some grudges and some fears and some frustration. Speaker 3 00:13:54 Oh the Speaker 2 00:13:54 Lot. And just like, haha. That is visionary. The knot itself is Speaker 3 00:14:01 Visionary. Oh that's definitely doors. Speaker 2 00:14:04 Yeah. Then this whole mistake of I'm gonna Pierce it and get rid of it. Right. Uh, which doesn't work cuz it tightens, when you try to Pierce it, of course it just gets tighter and tighter and more frustrating. Then you start to see through it. Right. And you see that there's no need to Pierce it and it's pierced when, as you see, there's no need to Pierce, it it's pierced. Right. Um, Speaker 3 00:14:27 It's you know that, Speaker 2 00:14:28 So they probably name them, you know, after the, Speaker 3 00:14:30 The hard note, which is sixfold yeah. Is, is um, is, uh, the double triangle, you know, the sheer Shak triangle, the six points of the double training wall is, is there. So you can see that as, as the bliss void invisible and not itself, but, and then actually the female Budha unravels it herself. You can't really unravel. I don't, you have to give it up and back to the unravels. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:14:59 Devotion, Speaker 3 00:15:00 Same thing Speaker 2 00:15:01 You offer it. You you'll offer the Lotus of your harms, which is slightly rotten to, with beloved. But you you're being honest at leaves is this like in OI, crony denial. Okay. You, you prostrate crony denial, you know, implying frustration. And this is metaphor. The top of your head opens cause you clunk it a little hard and then your brain unravels on the ground in front of the deity who is pure consci consciousness. And so the brain has thousands and thousands of folds or super impositions mm-hmm <affirmative> and they're all unrolled and exposed to the light of pure consciousness. It's quite embarrassing. And then every, everything that is perceived is being perceived by the beloved, by the Parma as it's being perceived Uhhuh. So it's never look it's, it is looked upon basically, uh, enveloped in compassion and, and, and is then seen without self mm-hmm <affirmative>. And this is the only way to deal with this is like the, the fundamental technique mm-hmm <affirmative> um, that makes all of this work mm-hmm <affirmative> um, Speaker 3 00:16:17 Now the guru, another question about the guru, Speaker 3 00:16:23 The guru, um, this, you know, is, is absolutely essential, you know, in, in tan Buddhism, of course guru's role guru's grace. And, um, but, and therefore it becomes the source of abuse and over dependency, a lot of problems outside of the, in initiatory work. Do you know what I mean? And it's, it's exploited by both guru and, and authoritarian personality burying the cycle in a wrong way. But what the guru becomes the channel of the timeless traditions, hologram fitting over your own imperfect structure, when you're ready to surrender your structure, is that fair? That's fair. That's fair. So the, so the guru is in a way just a vessel, Speaker 2 00:17:16 Totally a vessel, right. And perhaps not a perfect vessel. Well Speaker 3 00:17:19 Good. Yes. Speaker 2 00:17:20 But a lovable and, you know, evolved enough so that there's like, you know, like most, most of our people here would be nice groups. I mean, and they would say, oh no, no, no, not me. I'm not qualified. And that's your qualification. Then the fact that you won't touch it with a 10 Speaker 3 00:17:40 Foots, have a saying, they say the best GU lives at least three valleys away. <laugh> in other words, you get, and then they're not around bugging you and bossing you around or doing different things, you know? Yeah. And that's a big distance, three values away. It's like beyond Boulder. Oh, in bed, California. Yeah. It's long way away into bed. Speaker 2 00:18:00 You're gonna see him maybe twice in your lifetime, Speaker 3 00:18:02 Maybe. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:18:03 Five minutes of instruction. Speaker 3 00:18:05 Well, so yeah. Hopefully, I mean life you're lucky more, but you know yeah. Speaker 2 00:18:09 10 Speaker 3 00:18:09 Minutes, so, okay. That's good. So, so that's a total agreement. There's this thing, if there's this prayer in the, in the Lama trip, the GU Puja written by the pen Lama, which ends with like, please come and put your toe in the center of my heart cha you know, and uh, that's you know, there that's that's cuz that's how it happens. That's how it works. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. So, so those, you get, you know, mad because they're scandals in these Dharma centers and, and yoga centers, shouldn't show out the baby with the bass water of the, you know, the, the guru who goes overboard or goes out of bound. The whole guru relationship remains absolutely critical. And therefore the institution has to be the she, but that enjoys. I mean, you may, may fail to be that, but then, then it'll kind of go another way. Unfortunately, if you really have to fight for that, I think Sonia might be ally in that that's I know, I think Speaker 4 00:19:18 I agree. Right. I do agree. That's the failure of many, uh, yoga attempts at yoga centers or schools Uhhuh, uh, and I've taught at some of them is the premise that yoga is a viable business. Speaker 3 00:19:35 The yoga Speaker 4 00:19:36 Is what that, but yoga is a, is a business. It's a viable business. Oh yeah. And therefore that you can rent a space, put in some really nice furnishings, uh, uh, you know, and gussy the place up Uhhuh and then go and try to find some teachers to teach that that's actually, that that's a, a mistaken notion and that's usually how people set up yoga centers. Um, and boutiques with the boutique is there already, Speaker 3 00:20:04 But the Speaker 4 00:20:05 Boutique, the boutique has to be in place. And so many people want to do this. Um, uh, and it, I just have seen it not work so many times, but the alternative that people often make the mistake is, you know, then the whole cult, uh, cult activity too. But, but that's what, like you said, throwing the baby out with the bath's either, there's gotta be somewhere in between, you know, Jim Jones that's and uh, and, uh, and upper west side boutique Speaker 3 00:20:35 That's right. Speaker 4 00:20:37 And, and there is so yes, I think you're right. It needs to be anchored in lineage, just like, uh, just like they do Speaker 3 00:20:44 In, uh, okay. Careful. <laugh> Speaker 4 00:20:48 You trying to Speaker 3 00:20:48 Go move on? I was trying to do something. I need the towel. Okay. Yes. But you know, they shouldn't blame the yoga centers because that's the same problem with the universities. Oh right. They go and build a bunch of brick campuses and they go, they charge tuition and then they go and try to find some idiot professors. And then they come in and pretend to know something. And then they go in and brainwash people, right. Who go to wall street and conquer the universe <laugh> Speaker 4 00:21:14 But I wanted to say, Speaker 3 00:21:15 So we produce all these students who are graduate and have no ethics and they do knowledge of life and then they have bad Marial relationships. And then they're like, Speaker 4 00:21:24 I got a lot to Speaker 4 00:21:26 <laugh>, but I wanted to, I wanted to think, uh, respond to something or just that you mentioned Richard about the, uh, the very ancient, the context of the, uh, the, the VAD him, um, and ritual context, like you say, it's quite clear that they were taking drugs and of some kind and, uh, medicine, it's a medicine, there was a medicine <laugh> so much miracle. Huh. And, uh, but the, whether or not that adds something that was phased out or, you know, that clearly by the time, you know, that the, the, the ritual was, was going strong at the time in MABA it's not really so clear that there was real Soma being that the same kind of whatever hallucinogenic. So, but there, you know, were substitutes, but the basic notion is that one is setting up a ritual context where you become possessed, where you become, I, you, your normal sense of self becomes completely taken over. Speaker 4 00:22:32 You are Indra. You become God. And you have that special subjectivity of being God temporarily, which is just fantastic. So the, the, the entire, uh, groundwork for these traditions, even when they go in a very conservative direction and wanting to sort of carve out, like, know, it's this God, not that one, or this is our special, uh, you know, my God is, is certainly better than yours. It it's, there seems to be almost no way to get away. I mean, even it's taken, it took India four, 5,000 years to finally come up with fundamentalism at the, you know, modern Neo Hindu, you know, Hindu. The there's a very, very modern phenomenon. The fact that it didn't come up for so long is quite well. Speaker 3 00:23:21 I think some sociologists in Chicago would say that people have been fundamentalists forever. You know, fundamentalism is just a projection of the initial fundamentalism, which is, I'm so great. That's the initial fundamentalism is I'm, I'm absolute and you're not. And, uh, and that's the source of all human suffering. Right. So then projected into my institution, my religion, my tribe, my whatever, to my family, Mylan Hatfield in McCoys. I, I don't the sociologists say they say that because they're saying that fun, modern fundamentalism uses all the, you know, internet and stuff. So therefore it's modern. Okay. But fundamentalism was always there. Speaker 4 00:24:01 The, the thing that I wanted to just comment on is this idea of the culmination of the ritual process, being the loss of self. Speaker 3 00:24:14 Yeah. Speaker 4 00:24:14 Which is so, Speaker 3 00:24:16 Uh, or transposition of it, the transposition, I mean, the medicine that Richard is talking about, and I think about the Amita Mascar, which is what so most likely was, which is a very amphetamine tile style related psychedelic, or inogenic as used in myth clubs and more nicely, uh, which is widely used all throughout central Asia and so forth by as a vision quest substance, uh, that, uh, that certainly creates a, for those in division quests, a shattering of the normal world picture and identity structure, and therefore has to be held within a collective scene by a senior shaman or the person who goes nuts. You know, that's a tip that that's, Theves do grow out that I think everyone agrees, but the Indians are upset about it because, uh, some of the Indian scholars did the Indian science Christ, because these did grow in central Asia. These mushrooms didn't really grow India, Speaker 2 00:25:12 Not sound south in Speaker 3 00:25:13 India. Yeah. No. And so then some people said, well, it's, they grow in Colorado. Yeah, they did. I bet they do. But, but, uh, and they say Baja and then, or they were just using a placebo. They sort of say later in the ritual and they lost track of it and then made them very annoyed. They thought that was offensive. And then more recently there's been this big movement in India, sort of nationalistic thing that the Beves didn't come from central Asia and no, we made them up. That's all ridiculous because they definitely did, you know? Yeah. And, uh, but they're stuck on that. You know, that's like British invention, you know, and a German invention that yeah. That, Speaker 2 00:25:50 That there are other countries is Speaker 3 00:25:51 Russian. Exactly. Well, but other countries conquer India. Yeah. And then some outsider, Concord inves are actually an imposition by outsiders from the Harapan, you know, dark skinned, Indian people who are more agriculturalists. And these NOMAS came down with their chariot and people of horses of, and horses. Yeah. So they, that, that, that was an earlier pattern. Like the Oles, they get upset about that. And instead they're in the, they they're in the position of arguing that we were, we with the taxi wallet in Moscow and Babylon and in Alexandria, even thousand BC, we were already driving taxis over there. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:26:29 We were spreading, Speaker 3 00:26:30 Yeah. We were spreading elevators over there, but that's silly. I know it's a joke. So, so, so yeah, but one thing I just wanna say in the Tura, it's not just becoming God, because, you know, in the betas, in the beta ritual, they never had icons of Indra or Maro or, uh, Mira or any of them. They never had an image. In fact, an AADE, they spread a kuia grass thing for them to come and sit. So when they would get really stoned and Indra would come, then they would give Indra Soma not to be jealous of them. And so they would be close with the God, but the, the Tre thing of becoming Buddha, not just God, but Buddha and, and adopting temporarily, perhaps a divine form for whatever divine form, but still not as a God, but as Buddha. And, and it's not just Ru of Theves Ru has become shva, you know, instead, or of Theves has become shva shva means peaceful was suspicious and Y and C peaceful suspicious because UMMA insists upon it. Speaker 3 00:27:37 And that's a, that's a, that is the later TRO thing. That's where the goddess and coming out to assert over that sort of more wild Indian tribal thing. So, so the God thing, you know, that's why they say Buddha is David Monta, teacher of humans and gods. And so out of that, very ritual, which was not at that level because they were scared of that guy. Indra was scary. They would give him Soma because Idra, when he would take Soma, he would say, well, tell I conquer now. I don't even know where I am. I, I don't know. I'm bigger than the universe. I, nothing more to counselor. I could take a break and they'd say, yes, have more Soma <laugh> and then they fall back. Seriously. They were scared. The native cards were scary and later Sheva has become tame and householder, you know, it's like you Yogi, but even as a Yogi, he's like more tame, you know, OMA like completely how Yos here, you know, she does remember Kumar, Samba. Mm. Yeah. She controls it. You know, you all know Kumar, Samba where UMMA TA shva. You don't know that story. Does everybody know that story? No. Tell I don't. Maybe I shouldn't distract and tell us, I know Speaker 4 00:28:53 You should definitely tell the story. Buddhist, former life, that Indra what? Buddhist, former life that Indra the Ja. Speaker 3 00:28:59 Oh, oh, that's a really great thing. You got to tell that, oh really? You wanna hear that story? I do the other one. Well, there is a, there is a story, a Jaka story of the Budha where he was Indra the previous life shakra they called the buddhis, but Saint Indra. And he was conducting a war with astronauts, which they usually do from the heaven Ofra. Right. Olympus type Suha heaven. And so, and temporarily asz had the advantage and they beat up the gods and they were retreating to regroup, you know, go back and fight them back. Right. And so Indra was, uh, was, uh, galloping in his chariot along in a narrow, uh, road in the forest, um, to go back and get some new troops and then come back and push that sort as back to where they belonged. Right. But then he noted India did that. Speaker 3 00:29:49 The char pole was about to knock down an Eagle's nest, where they had fledgling little glits in it. He could see that. So he told the cherry tears stop the chariot. I can't knock down the glits, even though we're in war here, you know, and the church said, well, look, they're running after you, all those outsiders, you're gonna get, keep wasted. You can't get back to your troops. If you say, I don't care the rules of war, they're my enemy. But not those GLTs. I can't knock them down. So then they, he insisted on turning. So, okay. What the heck? I'll go back after. Nevermind. I'll charge them. So then he turns the chariot, he charges at a vast line of, and then the sorts think that his truth must be behind him, but he wouldn't be charging. So they all run away. So it's such a beautiful thing from, you know, that, that it's changing. Even the rule of war, you know? Yeah. No collateral damage. It's the ultimate, no collateral damage. Um, you know, like Ja tale, you know, of, of when Buddha was Israel, when he was just an and he was killing and he was fighting, he wasn't Speaker 2 00:30:53 Budha. So this is transformation of the, the understanding of the gods. Speaker 3 00:30:58 That's a change of story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 00:31:00 Um, and then when you, so when you identify, uh, in the TROs with a particular, God, these gods are not the, the ancient gods who have big egos and Speaker 3 00:31:15 That's right. And are frightening. Speaker 2 00:31:17 Yeah. Speaker 3 00:31:17 And who are, these are loving gods. Speaker 2 00:31:18 Yeah. And these are loving gods, right. Who are made of compassionate self. Yes. And who don't even, and who are constantly getting off the sense that they have a role or, uh, as God in order to be all other beings. So those gods, as you become those gods, you'd find these more evolved like Vishnu or, or Budha. Speaker 3 00:31:42 Yeah. Or sh shva are no longer much. Speaker 2 00:31:46 These gods are busy identifying with all beings. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, who they, they adore, they right. Are selfless gods. Right. And so when you identify them with them, it's not like you become puffed up and you think I'm the Lord of the universe. Right. I'm gonna go conquer. Right. You start, then you think, oh, all other beings are me. And they're all in my heart when you identify, uh, ritualistically right. Uh, with his gods. And so it's a, it's a good, it's not a, um, form of, uh, megalomania, megalomania and the old sense of the world. And so therefore, uh, you're able to get off of it too. In other words, it, yes. It's like a ritual identification and you're very easily like that. You can stand up and, you know, answer the phone if it rings. Speaker 3 00:32:36 Exactly. But it's too dangerous, right. That's point is that it's too dangerous. These deeper things without either PMA, AMA defined as not your ordinary ego self. Yeah. Or, or they put, have an expression Supreme, self of selflessness. And so that's what makes it safe because in that case, you'll never be stuck in mega Romania. You won't get what young was so scared of Indian yo traditions, because he said would lead to inflation, remember card. Speaker 2 00:33:10 Yeah. Speaker 3 00:33:11 But that's cuz he was Swiss. Speaker 2 00:33:14 Yeah. It's probably true if he did it. He would've been really, Speaker 3 00:33:19 Really good. So that's really neat. Thank you. Speaker 2 00:33:22 Yeah. So then I, I, I, I once, uh, spent a, a day with Chongo poche you know who Chongo Speaker 3 00:33:30 Oh yes. He very nice Lu. Speaker 2 00:33:32 Yeah. And he, uh, it's, that's a long story, but he was going around doing different teachings around Colorado and I was just in the van with him. Right. Oh. And, uh, Speaker 2 00:33:44 He was just lock or something. There was in the van with him and he would go around and he was doing, uh, teachings on Buda to these retreatants mm-hmm <affirmative> and basically he's just saying the same thing that the, the, uh, VI of the secret mantra, you know, the, is taught once you have realized emptiness or Shinta. So once you're grounded in Mariah Uhhuh, then the tantra really works. Yes. And it's really what makes the tantra work. Yeah. And if you don't have that initial grounding or context, then it's just some pretty dangerous, crazy technique. Yeah. And, um, Speaker 3 00:34:27 So, so in parallel, I'm trying to say that the, the yoga sutures have, have a virtues of sit certain virtues. And as you say, if you go back from ante to the yoga sutures or San carer, you can find in there nonduality at the deepest level. But if you don't, if you just go to the O Sutra without knowing nonduality, you won't Speaker 2 00:34:49 Decide, interpret it dual easily. Speaker 3 00:34:50 So easy. Yeah. So, so you have to, you, you it's the same way you're safe in the inner yoga. Then if you, if you dealt with the, the ad like path that's, if that's, if that's fair, that's what I was inquiring about. And I think, and that's really neat. That's my whole game. My whole like thing is, is to refi back together, you know, and actually then therefore from Buddhist time to the conquest, by the Muslims of India is India's great ascent as a society and its civilization because it becomes more and more gentle. And the peacefulness that Ardo decried and accused the Buddhist and the James, and then later Hindu, yo Hindu ate yogis and things of not being warriors and therefore letting himself be conquered by Muslims. And then by Europeans is actually because he's seeing it from a European point of view of being conquered international. Speaker 3 00:35:52 War's actually India's glory. And to be praised that they were willing to choose a great life and be vulnerable as a society and have great raagas and have like more free women and have less rigid cow system and have non-duality and have 2,500 varieties of mango to SL on and to be cool. And of course, then some guy comes in dragging his wife behind his camel or his three wives and, and he's like freaked out. And he feels a RA vibe here in India and he wants to eat dead and to chill in and he's gonna beat them up. And then later, you know, they're gonna make ties Maal to his wife and keep his camel outside. And the Brits come in all like all strapped up and marching with their stupid hats, looking all fuzzy, you know, like wearing like wool underwear, wool underwear, old underwear and scratchy stuff and sweating and getting rashes and things. Speaker 3 00:36:53 And then later you got like George Harrison and the beat. Yeah. Yeah. RO she SW whatever, you know, gie finally the Brits get absorbed, you know, by this peacefulness. Right. So then <affirmative> right. So then, so we don't have a decline. It isn't a decline in flow when you become gentle, it's an ascent it's civilization <laugh> and then the Bri and the, and then the injuries, however, diabolically left that division with Pakistan and them, and then south weapons to both sides, industrialized weapons to go south. So, so then the Indians still can't discover the greatness of their society, which Gandhi was trying to push their, the za and, you know, even everyone to be nonaligned, he was still a little bit, but he couldn't really cause he needed weapons. Cause the mad Lu Pakistani were there, you know, and all the Pakistan generals were trained in centers, you know, all of them. Speaker 3 00:37:48 Yeah. He found they were all from centers and the, and the European industrial weapons manufacturers were selling weapons to them. And then Indian sent to buy some weapons. Yeah. So they couldn't do their, you know, their Raaga life. Yeah. Which is nice. Huh? Yeah. Okay. Right. Okay. Okay. That's all I wanted to, I'm giving John material for his thesis and for his Institute, no, you have to defend India there. The university of Virginia, like building some weird columns, you know, and like some play town columns. I don't know Jefferson was himself the reincarnation of something Yogi. Oh, he was around definitely poor guy that John keeps coming up with the latest, he was discovery. John. When my archivist, when visited Monticello, he said later, I don't know, there's something wrong with Tibetan history. I'm the reincarnation of that guy. <laugh> you know, I'm, he's not them kind of I'm his reincarnation said, he said that. Yeah, he did. Wow. He said that that's his. He said, I really, that guy I'm him. He is said, somehow Jefferson had a little bit side like that, you know Speaker 5 00:38:59 <laugh> anyway. Speaker 3 00:39:04 So therefore the, if that, so then the Tibetans who were a huge empire, right. Conquered China even at one time, and then they became vulnerable. They just got wasted in the last century. And then the Mongolians had the biggest empire history bigger than India. Then they became all coming out of this. Yeah. Out of <inaudible> Speaker 6 00:39:29 And KU Lak Speaker 3 00:39:30 And Speaker 6 00:39:33 KU Speaker 3 00:39:36 Yeah. Of the DMA. Yeah. Yeah, he did. Yeah, he did. And then, and then later the AAN K the third LA student in third. So they, you know, but that's transmission from India, that's the transmission from the London university that comes from gender. K how you're going stop a bunch of people like that who are so tough, you know, they really were tough, you know, and how you're gonna get to them, except that they, I was talking to, to, uh, about the purpose of life. You know, you have to show that there is a purpose cause you know, of life to be really happy and have real bliss, which is way better than conquering people and grabbing their stuff. You know, that's, that can be a little bit fun for a while that like looting and pilling, which exciting it's like drag racing or something and banging people over the head. But it's much more fun to have your chakra, your hard chakra explode with the couldn valley organ orga. I think Speaker 5 00:40:42 I heard that. Speaker 3 00:40:43 I've heard that too. I'm still looking for it, but I'm heard, I think it's much more fun. And so those yogis had to get that, make that point to the defendants of the Mongolias to get them, to drop their weapons and drop their, their, their sacrificial victim business. You know, I, it stadium yet. So that's what I'm, that's that's, that's what we talking about here in America, which is the latest bunch of Jen K country. Right. That was the second verse. The third chapter I Speaker 5 00:41:23 <laugh> chapter three is Speaker 3 00:41:29 Gonna no, but that's a good Speaker 4 00:41:33 About verse three is craziness. What craziness Speaker 3 00:41:59 At that? Speaker 4 00:42:00 Yeah. Speaker 3 00:42:03 It's like, is that the name for Speaker 2 00:42:10 That's for Speaker 3 00:42:11 The empty place or what P is a place or in PVI? I'm not sure how you get that word. PVI V the road of emptiness empty road, Speaker 4 00:42:24 Having the road, Speaker 3 00:42:25 Having a place. Speaker 4 00:42:26 The one that has the, or the one that has the place cuz of Speaker 3 00:42:30 Has road Speaker 4 00:42:31 Avin Speaker 3 00:42:32 V is a like part of Speaker 4 00:42:33 You mean as in like same Speaker 3 00:42:35 Van? Speaker 4 00:42:35 Yeah. Von VIN, Speaker 3 00:42:36 Beef, feminine PVI para Speaker 4 00:42:40 It's. Speaker 3 00:42:41 Okay. Speaker 2 00:42:43 Anyway, the empty, Speaker 3 00:42:44 The empty road. Empty path. Speaker 2 00:42:46 Yeah. The empty path is the, is the Royal path. Speaker 3 00:42:50 It's the garage Ofie Speaker 2 00:42:52 Yeah. Speaker 3 00:42:53 It's the king road, the Royal road. Speaker 2 00:42:58 The Chitta becomes Neum, which was without any support. And so mind is just mind in open, empty emptiness with no outside support or frame of reference. Right. Which is Speaker 3 00:43:13 Openness, Carlos, Speaker 2 00:43:16 And this, this little thing he put in here is with its objects of enjoyment is just some Speaker 3 00:43:22 Yeah. And Vangen doesn't mean Eva, one general means deceived. And that is the deception of Karl of time. Mm-hmm <affirmative> right. The deception you fool death. You trick. Yes. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:43:32 Then you trick death, Speaker 3 00:43:33 But you know what that means? Mind ceases to objectify. Yeah. So that doesn't mean that mind goes off withdraws. See, he's taking a dualistic way of free of connections, but that means his mind has no object because mind E encompasses all the objects. Yeah. That's a non-dual thing. So therefore it is all the connections. Speaker 2 00:43:58 Yeah. The connections are still perceived. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:44:02 But so it's not separate from, in other words, it's not a subject object connection. ABA means the object of perception. So near means it no longer objectify. Yeah. And, and he, this guy who's translated, I'm sure is reading this ally by saying he becomes free from all connections. So that's like the Yogi who's like withdrawing into this inner space that I'm not gonna touch anybody. I'm not gonna have to wash dishes or listen to my wife. <laugh>. And so actually when becomes all the dishes and the same when there's no object, because it's all you, you're all of Speaker 2 00:44:36 It. There's no problem washing Speaker 3 00:44:38 Exactly. They wash themselves. Yeah. <laugh> Speaker 4 00:44:43 So that's one of Speaker 3 00:44:43 The ultimate, I'm sorry, but I'm just discussing about that. Speaker 4 00:44:47 Yeah. Well, well this is the other, Speaker 2 00:44:49 The translator here obviously knows, Speaker 3 00:44:54 You know, that, that MAVA, you know, that, that Thater MAVA Speaker 4 00:45:00 Yeah. Speaker 3 00:45:01 He gets so worked up in the 15th century. The, the, the, the writer, a writer. Yeah. The guy who was so upset by Han's non-duality that he came up with a brilliant, magnificent Indian concept of dualistic non-dualism <laugh>, which is so cool. Yeah. Right. And so he says shva are those Buddhist? Yeah. And they're, and they're nihilistic, cuz they don't think debates are divine and they, this and they that, and I think it's all worked up about them Speaker 2 00:45:32 And they hate form. They hate about Speaker 3 00:45:34 Yeah. They hate and they don't like us being able to hire cast. Yeah. Which is their worst crime, et cetera. And so, and yet in these working yogis of the same era, they're happy with Sonya mm-hmm <affirmative> and they called Speaker 2 00:45:56 And these nots were also the not cult was center. The not yogis. Yes. A lot of them were in Stan, near MAVA. Oh, okay. You know, near that's where Speaker 3 00:46:06 His, where mud, he, I didn't know that area. I thought he was in his house. I say, oh cool. But he just didn't get out of the house. No Speaker 4 00:46:15 Enough. Yeah. I thought that muda was a southerner too. That Speaker 2 00:46:18 Was didn't sell. But his cult, you know, but Speaker 3 00:46:20 Not mad mud Speaker 2 00:46:22 Mu <inaudible> Speaker 4 00:46:23 Yeah. Mat we're talking about right. Yeah. I think Speaker 3 00:46:27 He wrote the whatever it's Speaker 4 00:46:29 Yeah. Video Speaker 2 00:46:30 Pilla. Speaker 3 00:46:31 Yeah. Yeah. And he was a dry, dry town. Speaker 2 00:46:34 Yeah. His, his gesture was Speaker 3 00:46:39 Oh really? Yeah. No <laugh> Speaker 2 00:46:41 Task for meaning two, no Speaker 3 00:46:43 Two. Oh only two. Speaker 2 00:46:44 Yeah. Two there's two. There's the individual. You there's the jivatman really? And then there's the PMA man. And the two are eternally separate. Yeah. So they can, yeah, Speaker 4 00:46:56 They can never be Speaker 3 00:46:57 One. And he had the idea. He said that God, you could never beat one with God. Yeah. And God was like a mother cat who would pick you up by the back of the neck. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and put you in the heaven to Meow, I guess, forever or suck on his tit forever or something. <laugh> but you couldn't be him cuz that's right down road time and Shara's no good. He's a, he was a crypto bud. Forget him. Speaker 4 00:47:22 So Bob, another fun thing in this first is that in the punch of you have your Chitta Viveka, right. You have a mind isolation stage of the, of in Nagen punch aro. Yeah. But the Chandra Ty in, uh, my text, my text. Yeah. Um, in the present ink refers to it. Alternatively as chia. Speaker 3 00:47:49 Yeah. Speaker 4 00:47:50 So he refers to that a NONOBJECT ation stage of the mind. Yeah. As being Speaker 3 00:47:56 Used that objective where mind is all about objectivity. That means, I think that's what that means. Yeah. Mind is all objects. Because for example, if someone read the contracting of body isolation, speech isolation and mind isolation dualistically they would again think, oh, you're isolating from everything you're removing from all connections. But what it actually means is that in that, in those visualizations of when the mandala triumph over the ordinary world, there's a thing called mandala. Rajari where the mandala vision is so powerful that it absorbs the whole unit of the world in the, for the meditator. And at that time, you know, Kali and, and there are different Buddhas. Like every Camillia like I was say the other day, every chameleon, every like snake, every mosquito is a Godes in the K chakra. They elaborate that. And it's a de so that, in other words, it's isolated from anything ordinary by seeing all the ordinary things as extraordinary. Speaker 3 00:49:00 Right? So even, even your saliva is the God's mama key, which is a Budha, not the brilliant Budd, a Budes. I said, I I'm coining a word called Budes people won't like it, but tough life Budes that we have a Budha, Budes have a God and a goddess. We have a Budes similar bud logical word, what you think budh so it's a budh so you, you know, when you, so that's, there's nothing ordinary. You have a snot coming out of your nose. It's actually kindness of mama. It's a goddess. You know, you have like something in your ear. It's like another different kind. It's low channel cetera. Speaker 3 00:49:42 And that's what isolation means. In other words, the isolation is you're isolating from any perception of anything as ordinary because your mind has absorbed all of it within the mandala. So there's nothing ordinary. Everyone is extraordinary. It's a, there's a great thing about that for a teacher. I think I mentioned once here, but some that didn't hear where the it's a great thing for teacher. It is that all other beings are Buddhas and bud essence. So when you're a teacher and you have students, they are pretending to need you to teach them because they know that you are so dense that you only learn when you say it yourself <laugh> and so they're saying, oh yes. What, what tell? I say, and then you say it and then when you say, oh, then you understand it. And they actually already know it. <laugh> this is really good, babe. Cause they're already perfect Buddhas and <inaudible> and everybody else there's, nobody is ordinary. You see nothing is ordinary. It's really good. That kind of practice. Speaker 2 00:50:43 Yeah. And I think teaching comes out better with that, with that kind of respect for the Speaker 3 00:50:48 Student. Exactly. Speaker 2 00:50:49 Ultimately they're extremely intelligent and kind yes. And already enlightened. Speaker 3 00:50:55 Yes. Sort. Speaker 2 00:50:57 Otherwise you <laugh> sort. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:51:00 As RO famously said, everything is perfect and there's always a little room for improvement. Speaker 2 00:51:08 <laugh>.