Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:14 Welcome to my Bob Thurman podcast. I'm so grateful and some good friends enabled me to present them to you. If you enjoy them and find them useful, please think of becoming a member of Tibet house us to help preserve Tibetan culture. If that house is the control center in America, all best wishes. Have a great day. This is episode 258 a conversation <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:01:13 So, so listen, so you are doing amazing things. And, um, I really liked your thing about the women in the Dharma. That that story in Bali is amazing about that Austrian lady. That's incredible, but it's very guts of you with it. Someone with a concussion, not shipped them out in a helicopter. You did the great thing. That's really amazing. And you've had many experiences like that, I guess, in these last year as well. Yeah, no, I'm sorry. I haven't visited your retirement a lot, except I photographs, but I admire it and I have, I was once there, since you were there in the nineties, I think I was in Pagosa area and not saying that's, you're near there right somewhere, but I was visiting somebody. I didn't have my own car. And I think you were maybe still camping at that time in 20 years.
Speaker 2 00:02:07 Well, we didn't have any buildings until 2004, 2005. Yeah. Wonderful.
Speaker 1 00:02:17 And how do you, how do you deal with being my, to London recognized as that is, that has, did that have a big impact on you or what happened very, very close from the beginning
Speaker 2 00:02:34 It's yeah. Yes and no. I would say it had an impact. Um, so it didn't happen until 2007 when I was 60 and, uh, when it happened in Tibet and then it happened again, I was recognized twice in one year independently, oddly, uh, in Nepal when it happened in Tibet. Uh, should I tell the story of it or just talk about,
Speaker 1 00:03:06 I'd be very interested and do you remember anything and this kind of thing, and people would be so interesting to me, it's kind of a, it's a hard thing for a Western person, you know, to, to, for, for, from various angles. And you're very, very well.
Speaker 2 00:03:23 So what happened, uh, what happened started the year before I was in retreat and of course I have been teaching churn, you know, the, her biographies and when women of wisdom came out in 1984. So, you know, it was, of course I'm very involved with feeding. Your demons was about to come out. But anyway, I was in retreat, it was a trauma knocked, more retreat practicing in the dark. I like to practice in complete darkness. And, and then all of a sudden I was flying and, uh, uh, flying and it was night, but I was flying and I, uh, came over this Valley in the mountains and I looked down and there were these beings in this Valley, different colors of beans. Couldn't really see what they were, but I could see them moving and dancing. And, uh, then I sort of hovered above that. And then one of them came up and then suddenly it was in my cabin with this being was female and white and riding a white lion, very clear, like I could be the hair on the lion's mane, like w which was kind of yellowish. And, um, and then a whole process happened. Uh, she identified herself as much. He loved him.
Speaker 2 00:05:08 And then she told me I needed to find her lineage and re-establish it. And, uh, this was urgent. And so I, uh, uh, whole process happened. She transmitted a practice to me, which I wrote down and then eventually, um, she integrated into me and then she, you know, then I kind of came out of this process. And so there I was in retreat and I had this sort of injunction to Theresa Elvis, her lineage, and it was urgent. And so I almost left retreat, but then I remembered you never leave retreat. You have to wait. And so I, and then, uh, it ended up being the next spring that we went to Nepal and, and to Tibet and, um, to, we knew we were like in Nepal, we visited where they have the 8,009 president. Pardon? Meta Sutra.
Speaker 1 00:06:19 Yeah. Associated with her the placement.
Speaker 2 00:06:24 Well, I mean, that part of me to Sutra is because that's the base of church department meter. Right. And, um, and, and when we visited that place, usually it's in this gold box and they never take it out. Except once every three years they take it out and repair it. And so they were, they're repairing it. And we actually see it. It had, you know, those beautiful little paintings
Speaker 1 00:06:51 On and Tibet,
Speaker 2 00:06:53 We were blessed so on. And so then we went to Tibet and went to his own and calmer, which was much a Clapton seat and Tibet about an hour by car, down the Valley from Sonia on the same side of the river. And, uh, when we arrived there, I was with about 35 people. Uh, we arrived get out of the bus and, and there's Lama there with, uh, you know, the incense and the whole kind of greeting group. And he leads us into the monastery. And, uh, I thought this is weird. Like, you know, uh, Oh, why is he doing this kind of like tourists, you know? And, and then we get into the, into the monastery, which like, most of them there has been rebuilt. And, uh, and he points to this road and he said, you, you, you sit there.
Speaker 2 00:08:03 And I, I S I said, no, no, that's, that's your seat. And he said, no, that's your seat. And it was one of those things, you know, that goes back and forth for quite a while. Anyway, it's this too. I sit there, um, he didn't say anything right away, but he said, you know, will you teach, teach? And so thought about, well, thought I could teach my cheeks lesson instructions, which, uh, which is an amazing teaching nature. And, uh, it happened that the person that was leading our tour was Jerome ADU, who <inaudible> and the foundations of church. And he had translated this much X, less instructions, that book. And so he ended up translating it back the button for this Lama. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:09:01 People were sitting listening to you, right.
Speaker 2 00:09:06 Some monks in the monastery and so on. So is teaching it in English. And he was to say
Speaker 1 00:09:11 Into Tibetan, and I took a few days, maybe
Speaker 2 00:09:15 Three days and then became,
Speaker 1 00:09:18 Wow. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:09:20 Yep. It's not short. It's not like one of those four or five line of testimony.
Speaker 1 00:09:27 I don't remember all of that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:09:29 Uh, it's, it's really wonderful. Anyway, so during that time I was eating with him and talking to him in my kind of broken to button, but, you know, good enough to communicate. He had a connection with, uh, Karmapa. He was, he was, uh, he was a Toku recognized by the 16th Karmapa of the brother of Mikio Dorjee. Um, and so we talked and, you know, went back and forth. And then on the fourth, uh, day, um, the end, it was saga Dow that month was that
Speaker 1 00:10:10 Special month
Speaker 2 00:10:12 Of the Buddha birth enlightenment and pardon Nirvana. So we were there. Um, and then a fourth day, we went down to the river to do the, to practice. And, um, at the end, uh, or actually during the practice started raining, this storm came down the Brahmaputra river out of the mountains, and it was kind of a peaceful day. And then suddenly there was this intense storm coming down the river. And, and, uh, there had been a rainbow around the sun the whole day, that day. So this rain came and we were doing our cheer practice. And, uh, this is the chip drum, right. And, uh, and you know, these drums should not get wet
Speaker 1 00:11:09 Because since we
Speaker 2 00:11:13 Already doing it, doing the practice, we couldn't stop. So I thought this was a really bad sign. You know, that it's like pouring rain and drums are getting wet and cold and windy. We're getting wet. And at the end, he, uh, came and sat right in front of me. You got your own to come over to translate. And he said, okay, that was the final sign. And I said, what? And he said, you're an emanation of <inaudible>. And I had dream three days before you came that there was a white dakini coming from the West sound, Dahmer, Ru loudly. And, and, uh, that's why I came to greet you.
Speaker 2 00:12:08 And, uh, that's why I told you, you had to sit on the throne and then I listened to you teach and, and, um, then there's been all these signs with rainbows and so on. And this rain was the final sign because we've been in a four month drought and the Barley's not growing. Right. And so this broke the drought. So, so that turned out to be a good thing. So anyway, then he gave me the relics, um, her Relic, uh, that they had there. And I said, these should stay here, you know? And he said, no, no, I've seen so much be thrown into the river by the Chinese. You've got, we've got to get these out of here. The Dharma, the future of the Dharma is in the West. It's over here. This is what he said. It's several people in Tibet told me that I'd met, you know, on the semi Chimp book, different places. So, anyway, your question was, what effect did this have on me? Um, my husband asked me that that night after it had happened and what I said, I remember I said, it allows me to know what I know. There were things that I had known that I wasn't allowing myself to know. And so it kind of opened up a door where I could know those things, and they all kind of came tumbling down tumbling in, in different ways. And then we went after, after Tibet, we went to Nepal, Overland, which recommend,
Speaker 1 00:14:07 Whereas you came through as young move right down that road, which is monsoon, you know,
Speaker 2 00:14:16 And that was particularly that part coming out of Tibet. One of the people with me after she said, they should have said, when they built that road, we tried and it didn't work.
Speaker 1 00:14:31 Kendall goes down every year. I think
Speaker 2 00:14:36 It was terrifying. And I had been in an accident in Butan about eight years before that were, uh, went off a cliff car. That's a whole other story. But anyway, so I had this kind PTSD about those kinds of roads, but anyway, we get to Nepal and we go to see Lama long do, who is, uh, has this turd monastery in Nepal. And then he also made me sit on the throne and you know, the whole thing. And then he said at the end, not, not that time, but before we left, he said, before you came, I had a dream of mochi leptin. And she said, I'll be there in three days. And then you came with,
Speaker 1 00:15:24 Is that the same lumber? One girl who goes to Portland? Yes. Oh, okay. I never met Germans. Sorry. That's great.
Speaker 2 00:15:37 And for a while, it closed down after the earthquake and he's pretty much in Portland now, but he, um, he was born in, in degree, long core where <inaudible> lived. And we're much at a bit of time. This whole life has been devoted to the Maciek and the chip. So she had appeared to him with her whole lineage in the sky and then said, I'm coming three days. And then we had arrived. And then he said, he put me in front of him during, we did a long wrench and train walk, practice with them, like eight hours. And he sat me in front of him and he said, I saw her. I saw her dissolve into you. So those were the two things that happened. And then in 2012, chromophore gave me the MACI empowerment. And, and, um, in, uh, near Toshi, Joan and champion,
Speaker 1 00:16:35 You mean the one in terms of, yeah,
Speaker 2 00:16:40 That was amazing. My connection with him. Cause I thought, Oh, I'm a 16th person. And uh, some people feel that way, like
Speaker 1 00:16:52 I know they do, but they didn't look at the photographs, the photographs of the 16th at that age at age, he was, it looks exactly the same person. You can't, you don't know which one it is.
Speaker 2 00:17:07 It was, I mean, as soon as I saw the picture of the 17th, I had no doubt, but anyway, so that was, that was also really amazing. I had some really interesting talks with him about his connection with, to practice. And so really what it means to me is just that I have a certain job, you know, I have, I have this, um, injunction, I guess you could call it to, to find her lineages as much as I can, um, and reestablish it. And that's why we had the church conference in 2017, calling together all the scholars that are working on it.
Speaker 1 00:17:54 Did you happen to connect to Michelle Sorensen by any chance for conference or she bought some school. She was a student of mine who had a deep thing about it has a very strange, I don't know if you've got to know her, but who's your, her mother and whole story in Canada. And, um, then her season, this was sort of when she did her dissertation, it was sort of overthrown in a strange way because Sarah Harding suddenly produced everything and then she had to retool and do something very frustrating for her. But, um, but she's, uh, she's very true blue about, about, uh, and uh, and a material lockdown. She really had some kind of karma valid. She wouldn't be to you if you have a relationship. I think that I'm admittedly at the conference, excuse me. She did give a talk digital. Was it good?
Speaker 2 00:18:49 Yeah. And she told this story, I don't know, remember if it was during the talk or when she and I met together about this kind of upset with her thesis and so on.
Speaker 1 00:19:02 Yeah. It does happen in the Dharma world. Yeah. Most of the barbarians we barbarians had death.
Speaker 2 00:19:15 Oh really? I mean, it just means kind of more work for me.
Speaker 1 00:19:20 Yes. But no. And then, so you were establishing and then Tara Mandela, you made like a center there and you've been teaching. A lot of people are effectively writing important books. And, and w what is it, when would you feel, do you feel satisfied that you haven't managed to restock the lineage or do you have goals and like, uh, like a 10 year plan or whatever it is, you know, how is it, how is it going sort of thing?
Speaker 2 00:19:48 I think the process has begun. We, we brought a Lama from Butan, really wonderful Lama who had been in retreat for 27 years. Didn't really want to come out of retreat, but, um, took us on, goes, his guiding teacher told him to come. Uh, and so he, he came and taught wrench and triangle, which is, which is the big sort of treatise on ship from the Karmapa lineage, um, coming down from wrench in Georgia. And it's a long thing. It takes all day to do it. And we learned it the 32 melodies. And, uh, I have some very talented students, musically talented who can remember those melodies. And, and then we went to, um, Butan. This is an interesting thing. That's still in progress when time is, there's a, there's a place in Butan called droop zone. Calmer it's much exceed in Butan. And what happened was, uh, at the time when the Chinese were about to invade Tibet, a, uh, boonies Lama was as angry, young, calmer in Tibet.
Speaker 2 00:21:07 And, um, the Lama, there was a Lama there, um, who w I think he was a terror 10 because of his name Ling. Um, those are the alarm there who had Parisians and knew the Chinese were coming and that they should leave. And he asked us, Putney's disciple. If he could ask his family, if he brought a group to Baton, would they take care of them either? And so he wrote and heard back and they said, yes. And so they left early 52 or something like that. And they took everything, you know, or at least a lot of things. They took a lot of relics from Zomi calmer. And, uh, they walked out. I saw the cut Von Gus staffs that the Lama used as his walking stick, uh, anyway, through various interdependences, uh, they made sure.
Speaker 1 00:22:15 So where is that in BoomTown or further East? Where is that further East? Northeast. I see, um, go much further
Speaker 2 00:22:24 Close to Tibet. And, um, so the Lama as Lama had seen a vision of a place in the mountains that was shaped like a Lotus, and that he should go to the middle of the Lotus and establish wonderful place. And so, uh, he did, and he found this Ridge in the middle of the snow mountains, and he established this little Gompa called droops, Henri calmer. And, um, and then, and brought with him all the melodies of, uh, from, from, from Tibet and, and, and texts. You showed me the texts, you know, those ancient, Tibetan texts that are made of that amazing kind of paper that isn't sounds like leather. Um, and so his, his he's married and his sister-in-law started having dreams about me. Yes. And she contacted me and she said, I'm having dreams about you at drugs, only calmer. And I really think you should come well, I didn't really know if she was for real or not.
Speaker 2 00:23:41 And so I had a student McAndrew, Jack, who, uh, was a head of the psychology department at Naropa at the time. And he was invited to Bhutan to set up, um, master's program in counseling, which they didn't have enough. And so I said to him, will you go visit this place? And tell me what you think is it for real, uh, they were building a big new monastery with all new statues and everything. And anyway, so he, he, uh, he said, Oh, I can't possibly, I mean, that's way out of the way. And I said, okay, well, if you can't, you can't, but then you know how interdependence works. So then he's in a cafe one day and he's meeting Sarah <inaudible>, who's a boot knees tour. Uh, leader has been from the old days and has every time I've taken a group to Baton, he's been the leader of the group. And so he was in the cafe, Makendra was meeting with him and then this woman, so numb chokey came in your sister-in-law
Speaker 1 00:24:58 As in Tim. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:25:02 As I remember the story, they didn't plan to meet. It just happened. And they, you know, at McKendree knew both of them or something like that, or maybe they plan to meet. I don't remember. But anyway, they, they met and then, um, started talking and, and she was saying, you know, you really should go to drew song and calmer. And then Sarah was there and he was like, yeah, I can get you there Friday, three hours in a Jeep. Well, I think they could fly to bomb town.
Speaker 1 00:25:33 You can find them on Tanya. I think you gave her apply to whatever that place it is right now.
Speaker 2 00:25:39 You can helicopter there. Well, what you can decide to,
Speaker 1 00:25:43 I think, four hours away. Yes. One terrifying airport.
Speaker 2 00:25:50 Uh, anyway, um,
Speaker 1 00:25:53 You didn't get there yet though yourself.
Speaker 2 00:25:56 Well, let me tell you, um, so, so then, um, Makendra went and I, I send a bell and door Jay with him that I asked him to buy in, in, um, tempo. I said, I buy a bell and George, I want to give that to the Lama as a, you know, Hendra. So he brought that in and the llama put it under the statue of MACI flopped in the bell and, and Georgia and said, uh, this, uh, this isn't moving until I'm a soldier and comes here. And so anyway, so we went, went yeah, in 2000, uh, 17, 17, and with 60 people who are all chip practitioners, I decided just to open it up and not limit the group and anyone who wanted to come do it, we would make it happen. And so we <inaudible> organized this. And we w we arrived there on the Eve of the beginning of their annual droop Chen, which we didn't even know. And so we did the direction with them, 60 Westerners with two drums. They couldn't believe it that
Speaker 3 00:27:23 There were these Western. She knew it.
Speaker 2 00:27:27 And, uh, I sat with him, you know, and I remember sitting on his throne next to him and he turned, he, I turned to them and I said into bed, and I said, the, the melodies are so beautiful. And then he looked at me and he said, Zangri, Zangri, they're the melodies from zombie Qamar was like, it's true. They have them original melodies. And because everything was wiped out in Tibet, that place in Bhutan, it's actually the main place that has a lineage. So we were last year going to go with people, talented people who could learn the dances and the melodies, and then COVID happened. Right. So the other thing that happened when we were there, it's the last day I, they did these dakini dances around, um, five different fires, uh, talk, you know, the, uh, Jensi, Firepool amazing. And I said to him, there should, there should be women doing that. It was all men. And, and then at the end, uh, this amazing double rainbow formed over the right, at the end of this day, it was like on time, you know, my grandson Otto was there and he was like,
Speaker 3 00:29:11 Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:29:15 Right on time. Yeah. And so, uh, we were also able to make a nice tender with them and help them. We've helped them build a school there. They didn't have a school for the little kids. And, and we built an elder home for the older, um, for them gumption, you know, the practice, uh, who were in, you know, how steep it isn't Butan and you, that was hard for them to get around. So, and so, um, we've done that. And, um, we've, we have a relationship now with them. And so we will go, I mean, maybe even the end of this year, we'll go again and, uh, and, and spend more time and really learn, um, learn things, learn these dances, learn the melodies. And I do have people who can do that. And so that will be a big piece of getting her lineage because
Speaker 1 00:30:18 Women doing it here.
Speaker 2 00:30:21 There's another good thing at the end, at the end of the whole drip Shen, you know, they, I said, Ken, can I speak?
Speaker 1 00:30:28 And you know, him, can
Speaker 2 00:30:30 I speak? And I said, you know, thank you. And this has really been so wonderful. And does this tendril with Tara mandola,
Speaker 2 00:30:44 You know, I'd really like to see women align of women and the line of men in the front row here. And I'd love to see women doing that dance. And he was like, Oh, no, they're too shy. And I was like, I don't think so. You know,
Speaker 1 00:31:00 I don't think so. I don't think so, but they would need encouragement, but it would be Western health. They did it the next year, the next year they did it and they filmed it in then. Oh, that's cool.
Speaker 2 00:31:21 I don't know really what's happened since we've been there, you know, but, uh, when we go back,
Speaker 1 00:31:27 Do they have many nuns there? Did you ever visit in BoomTown, in the PIM patrolling base where all the nuns are?
Speaker 2 00:31:33 I, uh, well, let me add one question at a time. They don't have nuns there because it's a gum Chan lineage. It's not a monastic lineage, they're lay people, but they're, they wear the maroon and they use, you know, this kind of Zen, the white, and, um,
Speaker 1 00:31:55 You could be lay women who would learn to do it then. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:31:58 And, and there was a group from, uh, Tim Pou who had come for the droop session and they all know it. You know, there's a big movement in Butan from Georgia, from zone, sir, Ken says, um, brother attending Norbert, wherever she's done. And they're really activated the trauma. Sure. That whole lineage is really happening between. So a lot of people lay people and, but not this one, this is the oral lineage of much left, but they've sort of been, you know, a little bit in a side, Eddie, you know, with this big Terma finish, which is marvelous, but it's important also that we keep the fine and keep the oral tradition. So anyway, that's a piece of, of what I'm doing. And then, uh, UNIM 10 tender, you know, him,
Speaker 1 00:33:01 I have never met him, but I admire him.
Speaker 2 00:33:06 You should invite him. I just taught a retreat with him. So he
Speaker 1 00:33:11 Only good things about him, very humble and beautiful. <inaudible>
Speaker 2 00:33:20 The band. He was part of that group that were in PTA brought over. They sort of escaped,
Speaker 1 00:33:32 I see
Speaker 2 00:33:33 TC, uh, went to, uh, <inaudible>
Speaker 1 00:33:37 Area or something. And then, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:33:39 Anyway, so, so, so this is just another piece about my cheeks lineage and So on. Um, tube 10 also has a real connection with mariachi. And so he found a group of my cheek teachings, oral tradition from Eastern Tibet in Eastern Tibet. And he has just translated them all is coming out with a book.
Speaker 1 00:34:11 Oh, great.
Speaker 2 00:34:13 I think it's either wisdom or Shambala. That's doing the book. I can't remember which, but that would be really interesting. Of course there are big church volume in the back, so she tries and all that. So, so there's that. And then we also establish a tar mandola are very rare term, a cycle from <inaudible> that he received from my cheek. And <inaudible>, it's a whole, it's an entire cycle, um, to, uh, get to Talan and tertiary and Tokyo complete cycle. And so we've had people in three-year retreat doing that. And then we had some programs.
Speaker 1 00:35:05 We have people on three retreat doing that soon we're in Colorado or timeline doula.
Speaker 2 00:35:13 And, and then we had these long-term programs, ten-year programs where people did the curriculum of the three-year retreat, but over 10 years. So one of them that first, um, group has, has, uh, just finished and, and there's two more groups coming. So, uh, we're doing that. And, um, various other translation projects, some other traumas and yeah. So doing
Speaker 1 00:35:46 Whoever, teaching the East, whoever crease and teach you over here, did you ever go to the pathwork center in the old days and what's called the pathwork center or sometimes when you finish it? I never actually
Speaker 2 00:36:04 Went there, but I knew about it when I lived
Speaker 1 00:36:06 There. Right. So we have that now it's called men law and we have a, we call it holds about two or 300 people. And, um, you know, we had the grandmothers there, you know, and we have it's all in us, went there one time and we would love to have you come anywhere. Anytime you don't want is when people started moving around and we've been closed basically for over a year.
Speaker 2 00:36:33 I've heard about men law and, um, been invited there, but I teach usually at Kripalu and they don't allow you to teach.
Speaker 1 00:36:44 Oh, sure. Well, yes, they're a, they're a bigger place.
Speaker 2 00:36:50 Love to, I would, I would, uh, I would accept that invitation now. You know, I haven't been back there for a while and, um, I would, I would love to come to memoir.
Speaker 1 00:37:02 We are the little littler, more Buddhist place, you know, there's mega, we're in the shadow of Omega and Capella. We can only hold a hundred and some people that's a lot. I'd have to say if we had bigger groups and that they would have to go to the farmers and hotel down on route 28 or something, they overflow,
Speaker 2 00:37:23 Um, coming to men lot. I, I know, is, is, uh, somebody who I've identified as a <inaudible> linear told her of mine, she's going to be admin LA rented a cabin there with Nina Ross.
Speaker 1 00:37:43 Oh, that's Chandra. Isn't when you were lineage, I generalize that three-year retreat at Tara mandala or something else where she did it.
Speaker 2 00:37:55 No, she hasn't. She's a mother, you know,
Speaker 1 00:37:57 So she isn't
Speaker 2 00:37:59 Done that, but, um, you know, she could teach it men also.
Speaker 1 00:38:06 Yeah. She's talked to the people who booked her bookstores.
Speaker 2 00:38:13 Um, yeah. So I, I, I bring that up, uh, because she's actually coming there like soon.
Speaker 1 00:38:22 Okay. Yeah. They have, they asked me to do something in their event,
Speaker 2 00:38:29 But I was saying on, um, on the 21 tars. Yes, that's right.
Speaker 1 00:38:36 That's
Speaker 2 00:38:36 The termite tradition, uh, launching tick. I think that's, uh, I, I, she said to me, Oh, you, you, you, you, uh, first-generation teachers, you all, you took everything. There's nothing left for us to do you get it all? And I said, well, nobody's really done the 21 Taras and you should do that. And so she did
Speaker 1 00:39:04 Well is I think people think that, I remember I used to have a friend who told me that, uh, it would be boring to attain their role now because, you know, then it's all done. And then there would be no thrill of attaining it. And then I didn't probably know how to answer him. And he was not a, really a Buddhists. That guy was like more like a Hindu type of oriented guy and the artists. And, um, and, uh, but I finally did figure out how to answer him that, uh, the bliss of the baseboard into this bowl is endless crescendo. It's not, it's not flat. I didn't have it at the time. He made that argument to me. I was a little worried about, but, uh, I think,
Speaker 2 00:39:53 Uh, Nirvana as cessation, that sounds sort of awful, you know?
Speaker 1 00:39:57 Well, yeah, that's where he thought, you know, I'm suffering, you know, they think it's all, you know, they can't imagine mostly, I guess we, people can imagine cessation of suffering and still be alive, still be around and still do things. You know, they, they have such an ingrained jailing. And so everyone has such an escapist mentality because of being afraid of things, trade of reality of things, but their freedom. And so they, so it's very hard for them to imagine that there's some kind of state where you could remain ecstatic and then be effortlessly engaged in all sorts of blissful things for the sake of others as you really are, which is wonderful. Really nice. Amazing. So you were your family where you, you or your family, what did your father do? I w I wasn't clear about that. He was around in Boston and New Hampshire plays when you're in a Lake there.
Speaker 2 00:40:59 Well, family is, uh, interesting. Um, my, both my grandparents on my mother's side, PhD is from Harvard in philosophy, right. And my grandmother was a fifth woman to get a PhD and actually had to get men to get books out of the Harvard law library. Women weren't allowed in
Speaker 1 00:41:27 Your grandparents. Right. That's right. You mentioned they were both professors actually at Harvard. She,
Speaker 2 00:41:34 He did, she was professor at Smith and Mount Holyoke, and also at Bennington for some time in the beginning of Bennington, but he gave me my first book on Buddhism when I was 15. She gave me, do you remember Paul reps and Zen,
Speaker 1 00:41:55 Do you, in your book who was saying, it's about whatever it is. Yeah. Riddles or whatever. I remember, I know that book, nice book. They liked that the Boston museum of fine arts and love cardio her. And, and there was a very Boston thing. You know, I was sort of there, I was in exile from New York and Massachusetts for a long time, many years, about 20 years,
Speaker 2 00:42:22 I met you in Boston, you know?
Speaker 1 00:42:25 Well, it hit, you came to Amherst for a number of renewable with sir.
Speaker 2 00:42:27 I know this was a long time. You probably don't even know I met you in, uh, when I first came back from India in the sixties late, uh, I don't know when this would have been maybe 68 or something
Speaker 1 00:42:46 Back to graduate school.
Speaker 2 00:42:49 Yes. And, um, there was this guy, Michael something English guy. Um, and, and there was a, uh, Patricia Walden, uh, yoga teachers. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:43:04 Oh yeah. She did. She had the clear like society. Yeah. That's the one. And she did this. She ended up doing hospice things with the dad. Yes. I think that was her.
Speaker 2 00:43:16 I met her and Michael Hollings had,
Speaker 1 00:43:26 Oh, dear.
Speaker 2 00:43:27 I met him in Nepal in 1967. And then when I came back, uh, somehow I met him again in Boston. And he took me over to your house.
Speaker 1 00:43:40 Yes. I remember. I will remember that, but I didn't remember that.
Speaker 2 00:43:44 You just had your first baby
Speaker 1 00:43:49 67. He was born December 11, 1967.
Speaker 2 00:43:52 Yeah. So you just had him, so this was maybe late 67 or early 68. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:43:59 Fantastic. Oh, that of course, way back. As soon as I saw that you were from Zelda, you're much younger than me. Yeah. We surely don't. I, when you said you were 17, when you turned 70, I was quite shocked. I'm 73. You don't seem that at all. Over 56, which to me, it's very young. I'm 80. It
Speaker 2 00:44:24 Gets, it gets younger and younger. Right.
Speaker 1 00:44:29 It doesn't seem that old to me, but I wouldn't want on my trends. A lot of them are dying actually, when they go, I feel so young. It's terrible. I do. I never want to believe that, but I do feel that way.
Speaker 2 00:44:45 It is weird. You know, that feeling. I, I, you know, that feeling of that, there's something that doesn't change, you know, no matter how old you get there's, it's like, there's something that doesn't change. And then I, I thought, well, I mean, according to the Buddha, that's not true. There it's always changing. Yes. Uh, there isn't anything that isn't changing. Uh, but then I, I was thinking about that and thinking, well, that our true nature doesn't change. Maybe that's what it is that feels like it's not changing is
Speaker 1 00:45:24 Our versions. I think
Speaker 2 00:45:26 Our ground of being the ground of being the unchanged
Speaker 1 00:45:30 Clear out of the void, I would say, or Alexa, I'm overthinking because it's an internet energy and it doesn't do anything because everything has already done from his perspective. Although it's not a person it's made for persons can be many persons can be animals and plants and whatever, but it doesn't change in the sense that it's, everything's already done as far as it's concerned, which is equivalent to being unborn and couldn't be drawn on, in translate. So that sound changing indestructible drop. Right. But then there's another thing I think, which is our ego habit where we feel, Oh, I'm the same. I was when I was 15 or 12. And, uh, it's sort of like a point at the root of the visual field or something that feels like it never did change. Or we construct, we reconstruct memories as if we were the same, I think. And that's, that's the that's, uh, that covers over the real thing ones, which is open to be anything. I think something like that. So it's a little tricky, I think.
Speaker 2 00:46:35 Yeah. Yeah. It is. It's an interesting, um, question. It's an interesting sensation of what is this? It feels like it's not changing. Is that a, is that ego docks then?
Speaker 1 00:46:50 No, I think for some, it is for some, it is, you know, like people who really have a problem with growing old because they feel like they were just the same when they were young, but never, they've never touched anything like clear light, although they have it in their heart, they have Buddha nature there, but the Buddha's dharmakaya millions of Buddhas in their arm. They just, but as well, as you said before, rightly it enabled you to know what, you know, everyone has that. Yes. But they don't, or they're not allowed to know that they know it was there. It's so covered over with the structures of, of, uh, you know, they're so terrified, like cultures, right. Cultures dominate dominatrix cultures, you know? So I've got to, I'm very excited about your, your, um, bringing women into force finally. And I was very pleased when you said it was partnership that you wanted. Although my house it's pretty, you know, the, the, the woman is the boss actually Scandinavia, you know, I don't know how much you remember then I consider her, but she doesn't really believe that I considered that she acts like, but I do consider that to be the case. But ultimately I think the partnership thing is the best. Like I liked that Riane Eisler about that. I don't know where she is.
Speaker 1 00:48:12 I like that idea.
Speaker 2 00:48:13 Yeah. Uh, she was actually friends with my uncle. Um, it's half of humanity and it's half of humanity. Yes, of
Speaker 1 00:48:23 Course.
Speaker 2 00:48:25 So I, um, really appreciate, I've heard you speak about this also about, uh, the feminine and the importance of the feminine, the lack of eminent. And it's so important that men take this up, you know, as, as what they care about as well. You know, it it's like racist will never change and this white people take it up.
Speaker 1 00:48:50 Yeah. You should see the faces of a bunch of Zen men. When I give a talk to them and tell them that of the two genders in the human species, the female is well advanced for alignment beyond where the manuscript wouldn't be able to reach as a starting point. Doesn't mean they're more of them will get there or et cetera, et cetera, unless they are able to, because the fact is they will think of alignment as some sort of wisdom mentor thing that their brain is going to do. They think we are, are so smart, you know, and all that, but actually they are much less aware of the interdependence. And that's really what it's about. I might send you a, did you see our tower tantra book? No. You know, I know in our job of trying to translate the tender, this is not actually tender, but we do. It's a very wonderful job, but not that she's not a student of mine. She was a student of professor Wayman, my predecessor, where we retrieved her dissertation, and then she made a boat, made it into a book. So thank you so much and have a great day.
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