Episode Transcript
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Welcome to my Bob Thurman podcast.
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[00:00:48] Speaker B: This is episode 343.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: So. Hi everyone. So happy to be back on a podcast.
And I'm thrilled to be here with my colleague and dear friend Annie Bien, who is the co author of our book on historical fiction about his holiness, the six great six, I would say great sixth Dalai Lama who lived 1683 to either 1706 or 1746, depending on which version we take.
And Annie is a accomplished poet.
She's a teacher of Tai Chi and also Pilates, I think you're an accomplished Pilates teacher. And she's a translator from Tibetan of many things and sutras and also native Tibetan works.
And she has written a wonderful novel working with me over a long period of time, way too long a period of time.
And, and we're very proud of it and we'll try to make. We're going to try to make a movie about it soon, basically.
And the Holiness, the Dalai Lama blessed me to do it and he said that and then asked me if I knew the secret story of how he lasted the extra 40 years incognito in Mongolia after sort of giving up serving the Tibetans as 5th as 6th Dalai Lama, he went on for another 40 years in Mongolia. But although we only chronicle the beginning of that in the historical fiction, maybe we'll have to do a sequel.
[00:03:03] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:03:03] Speaker A: Anyway, I'm delighted to be with Annie. So, Annie, as I'm here now in the role of your interviewer and like, have you had fun working on this long novel?
[00:03:17] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:03:18] Speaker A: And tell us about it. How has it been for you? And maybe the other question, which you can start with either one, would be how did you get involved with all of this? How come you're involved into it in Buddhism and et cetera, et cetera? You know, you're sort of your arrival story sort of into this field.
So you can do either one first, whichever you like.
[00:03:40] Speaker D: Okay, I'll talk about how I got into Tibetan Buddhism.
My father was always a meditator, but I watched him meditate at night. He sat on a old corduroy cushion and he sat for a while and then, then as a little kid, I thought he sat forever, but maybe it was only 15 minutes. And then he got up and he Looked very calm and. And I thought, oh, I want to be like that. But my mother said, unless you can define what Buddhism is in one sentence for me, I think the kids should have an American religion because we live in the United States.
And so my father said he couldn't. And so she said, okay, so we have to look for something else.
But that it didn't stick for me. I mean, I. I definitely was all through for as long as I remember. I really kind of wanted a spiritual life.
And then it.
And I. I went to a Zen center once, and it was quite nice. But it didn't really hit me until I came upon Tibetan Buddhism in a. In a way where I was having a very difficult time in my life. And I was crying and there was this book on the shelf that fell off into my hand and where I was sitting on the bed. And it was kindness, clarity and insight.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:05:09] Speaker D: With this beautiful photo of the Dalai Lama on it. And I remember buying the book because I really liked the photo.
You know, the whole thing of judging your book by the COVID I thought, this is nice.
And inside I couldn't understand a word because it was all very technical sounding. But I thought, I just have to keep this book. I really like this photograph. And then when I was feeling really bad, I opened to an array random page, and it said, if you ever feel very fearful, place your head in the Buddha's lap.
[00:05:41] Speaker A: Oh.
[00:05:43] Speaker D: And I did. And I felt so much better. I remember falling asleep. And after that, I thought, I really have to find a Buddhist center to practice.
And I. And I went to the Shambhala center, where they had meditation classes in the evening, which were pretty good. But the big change was I was very taken by the Dalai Lama's photo is I wanted to know more about it. And there was. I read it was in 2000 that there was going to be. I joined the international Campaign for Tibet. And I got this letter saying, an email saying, if you would like to ask the Dalai Lama question, we're going to pick three people to ask him a random question. And so I was picked as one of the three.
[00:06:28] Speaker A: Oh, that's great.
[00:06:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:06:29] Speaker D: And so it was funny because I wrote so many versions of my question, I had to ask them if they could send it to me again because I had so many variations.
[00:06:38] Speaker A: In person, was it. Where was that?
[00:06:40] Speaker D: It was in person at the Smithsonian. In the. Where they were having the Tibetan festival there.
[00:06:48] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:06:49] Speaker D: And there were. I. It was a big auditorium and an audience, and they said, you'll get random Seatings, we're just doing. Drawing a lottery. And my husband and I had the front row to the right center, like six seats. I really, really excited. And I asked him, your Holiness, I was born in Hong Kong and I lived in the United States.
My life from one and a half. And I have started to study Tibetan Buddhism and feel very moved by all the Tibetans I meet, all the teachers that I've met.
But how can I be a truly compassionate person if I hate being Chinese? I don't feel Chinese and I don't feel American in the United States.
And so he said, he thought a moment and he said, I really appreciate your what. How your sentiment. And I hope that you will realize and come to understand that if you're truly going to understand compassion, you'll understand it's a universal emotion.
And that through it you can make great steps if you get to know your own family and your own traditions and then the American families and American traditions and start talking to your family and your friends about what you understand about compassion. And in that way you could. You have the potential to make a big, big universal movement by being kind and very small steps. It starts with a small step and then just moving forward. Just learn as much as you can about your own culture and the American one.
My life changed, totally changed after that.
I realized I'd looked at everything the wrong way because I was trying to find fault in everything.
And it really, it was beautiful. And then after that, I start to study and at the end of the audience, a man in a suit came up to me and said, I don't think His Holiness answered your question completely. So I would like you. We'd like you to stay in touch. And it was his secretary, Tenzengeshe Tatong.
So we started an email and he helped me find the teacher. We went up to Dharamshala and had tea with him, and he gave me some recommendations. And it was. It was. And then I found. Then I went to Chungla Rata Rinpoche and started to study with him.
And he, he was very kind because I thought, well, I've been starting to read the Lam Rim because of what he's teaching. And I know you're supposed to wait like, like 12, 15 years before asking any teacher if you could, if they will be your teacher. And I saw him four times. And then I saw him at a public, public gathering for the opening of the UN for.
And it was for all the different religions coming together to have a day of a call of prayer. And I saw him at the lunch break, he came in with Kenzer Rinpoche, Nikki Vreeland at.
[00:10:05] Speaker C: @.
[00:10:05] Speaker D: And Nikki went to get lunch for Ch Rinpoche. And I thought, okay, this is my chance. I'm going to just ask him instead of standing in the corner. And I went up and I said, I've been coming to your class. I've been here. I've been at your class four times. And he said, yes, I know.
And then I said, and. And I know it's really improper, but would you be my teacher?
And he said, yes, come to class. And that's what got me really started. He.
He would ask me what. How my studies were going, what I was studying, recommend things to me, places to go. And also at that time, because I'd gone to His Holiness's teaching. I remember the big change started in 1998 when Tibet House and Master Shenyang was holding that teaching on the wisdom of Manjushri Roseland. And, oh, yeah, I remember thinking, oh, I really want to understand him in his own language.
I. I think it. The. The translation is really beautiful, but his sentences are always shorter, so I want to know what he's actually saying. And whenever he spoke in English, it was very direct and straight. So. So that's how I started studying Tibetan. I met Geshe Jams Paul through a friend, and I thought Geshe Drumsell's class was too difficult. It was a weekend Saturday, Medicine, Buddha, pract, translate. And I didn't know what was going on, so I didn't go back. But then one day, he substituted for children because children Rinpoche couldn't attend. And Geshe Johnson came in and he said, you only came to my class once and you didn't return. Why not?
[00:11:53] Speaker A: Oh.
[00:11:54] Speaker D: And I said it was too hard. And he said, it was not hard, Annie. He remembered my name. You will come to my class at Columbia University twice a year.
[00:12:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:04] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:12:05] Speaker D: So that's how I got started. And then after two years, he said, and I also studied at that time with Kempo Pemal Wang Duck.
And then they were both giving me peches, saying the other person wanted me to have it.
And then. Then finally one day, Geshe Jamsa said, you need to go to Robert Thurman's class.
Oh, Buddhism class. And he said, I spoke to him and it's fine. Of course, I later found out that wasn't the case. But.
But he. He said, go at this time to the class. And I went, and you happened to be there in class, and. And Geshe Jones Paul said, well, you know, I'll meet you there. And he didn't come until the end of the class, so. But I was. You were so kind. You welcomed me into class and said, oh, yes, sit down.
[00:12:57] Speaker A: And yes, yes.
[00:12:58] Speaker D: And I, I remember feeling really lost. It was the advanced PhD class. And I remember Marty John was reading really fast. I couldn't keep up with him. And I wrote you and said, I was really sorry I couldn't keep up, but if I could just sit and listen, it would be okay. And then you asked me the next class, well, what don't you understand?
And you can't. I can't have you in this class without knowing what's going on. So you taught me how to take apart a sentence and find the verb, and then you taught me how to read aloud and repeat it after you and what Geji Wangyu taught you. And it was magnificent. I was so happy. And at the end of class, I remember some student asking me, so what year are you in in your program? And I said, no, I'm just an auditor. And then. So they went, oh, so could you ask him these questions for us?
The class was afraid to ask questions that they didn't know. It was quite funn.
But it was. I, I really loved that class and studying translation with you because I felt like I got so much out of it. And at the same time, Cholerinbajay said, stick with that class because the Tibetan will tell you everything you need to know.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: Oh, good.
[00:14:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: And he learned the language. That's marvelous.
[00:14:18] Speaker D: He said, once you understand what the words are about, everything will open up for you. Which.
So that really helped. And that I think during that time I showed you a piece of writing that I did that was posted in a BBC student writers group where I had tea with. With the Dalai Lama secretary and what it was like. And you liked the little piece of writing and saw some of my poetry, and that's how you got to know me as a writer.
[00:14:48] Speaker A: All right, good.
[00:14:49] Speaker D: So very, very excited when you asked me to work on the, the six Dalai Lama with you, because I didn't know anything about him at all.
Yeah. I only knew about the 14th Dalai Lama.
[00:15:07] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:08] Speaker D: Being able to learn some history about all the Dalai Lamas and what was going on and the connection with Mongolia and China and Manchuria. It was, it was so helpful for me in India, and it was really such a complex history to be thrown in on. But at the same time, this was it. This is my Asian history. Something that I never knew anything about. Because of growing up.
[00:15:38] Speaker A: Oh, that's interesting.
Or Lama Pembawanga or any of them.
Were they a little shocked that you were interested in. That you were working on six Dalai Lama, you know, because of his. His unconventional story?
[00:15:54] Speaker D: Interestingly, not at all. They were extremely good.
And particularly Chongray. He would ask me every week, how is it going with that writing? You know, and. Yeah, and he was really.
He was like, how far are you along? How much research are you doing?
All of them were. And all of them loved the poetry, and I didn't know any of the poetry. So then when you recommended all the reading for me and all the different writers who had written, and I thought, this is an amazing story. But. But it was his poems that really.
That really rang true to me because I thought, here is someone who can talk in a very casual way about life and love and. And in a. In a very unacademic way and full of kindness and love and understanding of all the things we go through. And then I thought, this is why. This is why he was so famous, because he really reached everyone. And I felt like he reached me. I think one of his.
His. The poems of. About. If he could concentrate the way he did on his sweetheart space as. As a. For his practice, he would be enlightened. You know, that. That kind of. This kind of. These kind of.
[00:17:18] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:19] Speaker A: You know, at some point during the work when you would write a scene and so on. And particularly when.
When we came up where we had to remember the way we were structuring the narrative, we came up with some places where he was called upon, even in his still teenage years, to give teachings to large crowds of Tibetans, you know, like a regular. Like his Holy Style dilemma does.
And then I was really impressed because, you know, I kind of gave you the themes, you know, not to shrink away.
One of the things that, you know, in the movie about His Holiness, the. The Kundun movie, you know, the present, the. The sort of director.
I don't know if really Martin was really behind that, but some people were very anxious not to put too much Dharma in the story because people will freak out if there's too much Dharma in the story and all that. But then when you wrote him, the way he was thinking about the people in the audience and perceiving their thoughts and things, and then the way that you delivered the actual Dharma teaching, I was really blown away in the sense that I felt you more or less channeled what the 6th Dalai Lama must have been as a Dharma teacher. Before he went off on all of the adventures kind of more. He was already a little bit. But he was still trying to do the conventional lama teacher thing.
You have a feeling of being kind of a medium or channeling or.
[00:18:56] Speaker D: I did have that feeling.
When you first set up the outline from the. The Chi Namtar, the external biography, I thought, this is like such a full thing. How are we going to do it all? And I was a little bit overwhelmed because it was a list.
And then when you gave the ideas of what to emphasize and what to think about, and when you actually asked me to do the teaching, I was initially really scared. I thought, oh, my gosh, how am I going to do. I remember doing prayers. Please help me. Please help me. I don't know what's. You know, I just want to voice you in a way that you would speak. Please help me. I remember making that kind of a prayer and then falling asleep.
And I did have.
Before that teaching, I had a dream that I met him in a cave. And he was wearing all blue, and he had. His hair was all out, and he smiled. And just before he was going to speak, he laughed. And I woke up.
Oh, too bad. I didn't get any words, you know.
But then I relax and I thought, maybe I will just go with that feeling and see what happens and just see if I can channel something from him, if he's willing, and see what happens. And a lot of times I was kind of surprised. I didn't know why I was writing what I did.
It was the same as with the Poison Game with the Chalices. I had another sort of thing where I didn't know what was going to happen.
A lot of the scenes that were what I thought, difficult ones, I felt like he helped me. And I. And there was that other dream I had where I was in a. In water. It was all blue, and I could breathe just normally. And he came. He was sort of. His hair was coming forward and he was waving, and he put his hands on my face.
And then.
[00:20:47] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:20:48] Speaker D: And I felt like, well, I just have to trust that what I do is going to be honest and sincere, because it's my motivation and see what happens.
[00:20:58] Speaker A: You and he were both underwater in that dream?
[00:21:00] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:02] Speaker A: You were going after. You were sort of breathing water in a way.
[00:21:06] Speaker D: Yeah, that was a really. That was a really powerful dream because I felt like he would have spoken.
But again, I woke up and. But he was very encouraging, which made me feel like, okay, instead of getting in the way of saying, this is going to Be really hard. And I don't know what to write. I'm just gonna write, trust what I'm.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: Writing, which was now beautiful, really wonderful.
[00:21:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:31] Speaker A: Well, I think you really succeeded, and you really did channel him.
And.
And I remember you were very resistant to us putting any conventional picture of him, but you felt that people would imagine him in their own way and then he would communicate to them in a certain way.
[00:21:51] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: He really is amazing.
[00:21:53] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:54] Speaker D: And I was surprised I was actually able to draw something.
But I really want to thank you for this. This opportunity because I. It. His writing about him changed my writing.
[00:22:09] Speaker A: Oh, really? How? How? Tell us.
[00:22:11] Speaker D: I feel like before, and I. And I have to thank you for being organized about telling me, you know, giving me ideas of what to do and which people to be. Make some fictional characters for this. And then we're going to use this particular person who is there in his real life to sort of make sure it sounds accurate and have all those conflic, I think, with those.
Those structural things that you gave me. I, As a writer, I have always struggled with structure. I like to write like they call a seat of the pants writing. I just kind of write and write and write, and then something happens and comes out. And then there are those who plan everything.
So it's helpful to have a plan to go towards.
But I think also what happened in the writing was I was willing to let go, thinking it had to be a certain way and. And that it didn't matter if I thought it was good or bad. I was just going to write it. And that was a big breakthrough for me.
Just write without thinking, oh, is someone going to like what I'm writing? No, it's just you're. You're going to write what he's doing now and he's going to tell you. And that helped.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: It was really wonderful. You know, someone. I was talking to someone, and they were amazed at the size of the book.
And I was saying, yeah, well, it's like that, but when you get in, once you're into it, you're in a world and you don't mind. It's like a long saga, but you don't have a sense of the time of it. And just to prove a point, I just randomly opened a page and I said, I'm going to read you this page. I don't know what's on this page. I'm just, you know, I went. I just opened the book very randomly and see, and let's see how it. How it works and what happens and Then it happened to be the scene you, of course, very vividly remember where Tashi's wife doesn't know he was killed, you know, by the people. He was doing some wrong things. Well, and.
And she was trying to get in to see the six past the secretary Punzo, I think, I guess his name. And then. And then his illness insisted on seeing him seeing her. And then they talked and then they had that whole thing. And then later they met him, although they didn't know it was him as a yogi helping them deal with the body and leading them to find the body and then come and do it. So it was a completely. Not sort of central in one way, but it was so, so clear about his personality and his. Also his sense of the equality of all the people, not putting down any kind of lower people or something like that.
And the way you did it, where you kind of. You got into her mind and how she saw what was going on and then his mind, how it saw her. And then the guy who was the brother in law, who eventually he was pairing her up with, was completely the people, because you were seeing all the people and you personified them in a sense. And the reader gets into the actual how the people are feeling in the scene and they come to life in the reading. And it's amazing, actually. I was even amazed myself every time I reread it. It's like that. And the person who I read it to was quite surprised, you know, in the sense of it just a random scene among some Tibetans and in a very stressful situation for them. And then the way he engaged with it was very marvelous and admirable and amazing and settled and subtle and sensitive. And it's just wonderful how you. How you brought these people to life. As a novelist, as you say, you didn't have trouble with structure, but you were a poet, you know, and you never thought of embarking on such a huge thing.
But as a. You're also a great novelist now.
[00:26:10] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: You can do whatever you want.
[00:26:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:15] Speaker D: Part of one of the things that worked out very well for it taking so long is I started to take a lot of writing classes and at one point I was writing a lot of what's called flash fiction. It's like a thousand words or less or sometimes.
[00:26:29] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, you said some of those things.
[00:26:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:31] Speaker D: And I thought if some of these chapters, because the book is so big, are short, then people will keep wanting to read if I can figure out how to tie and thread things together that way.
And that was a Good technical thing for me to learn how to, to make a beginning, middle end in little, in the little side stories, which I.
[00:26:55] Speaker A: Think helps the empathic quality. I don't think it's a technical thing. I think that's, that's you, that's your own, you know, as the Dalama told you, compassion will flourish, you know, bit by bit, you know, baby, baby steps.
[00:27:09] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah.
[00:27:10] Speaker D: And I really felt like the six Dalai Lama taught me how to be kind when I was writing about him.
[00:27:20] Speaker A: It's amazing, you know, it's, I, you know, I've been wanting, I was, I had to restrain myself because many of the times in these last times as we were finalizing things, grade six Dalai Lama in the, in the title.
Because I think he was truly great.
[00:27:37] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:27:38] Speaker A: But the Tibetans would have all had his path.
[00:27:40] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:27:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:27:41] Speaker A: But they, the ones they put great are the ones who had a big social impact.
Obvious in a sense. I had a long lifespan and so on. So then they put great, you know, grade fifth grade, 13th grade 14th.
They put grade about the second or even the first. And they were all great, you know.
[00:27:59] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:27:59] Speaker A: But what was marvelous was how he, you know, then, how he foresaw aspects of what now is having to happen with Tibetan Buddhism.
[00:28:12] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:28:14] Speaker A: Because it's going among wisdom of equality, you know, going among lots of different kinds of people. And how, how, how he does that, you know, Avalokite or the Dhaka Continuum, how they do that is extraordinary. I don't think he's an exception in the sense of he was right there with all the people all the time.
[00:28:38] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:28:38] Speaker D: I, I, one of the things that I started to feel when I was writing, and especially because that was during a phase where I felt really fortunate, we could go and go to his teachings, His Holiness 14th Dalai Lamas teachings regularly and we went to India a lot and, and just to get a sense of what that feeling is like to be around a high Lama and that expansiveness that I thought it's really important to be able to write about, that sensation is not an ordinary person's presence.
[00:29:16] Speaker A: It really brings to life what they say about the Buddha. You know, the Zen thing about Buddha is in the Blue Cliff record. I don't know if you ran into, bumped into that, where one Zen master says, well, from the time he attained enlightenment till the time he left his body, he never spoke a single word, he never said a thing. And then the other Zen master comments in that says, oh, such a garrulous non speaking filled the Dragon King's cave With scriptures.
And then the idea that. That a huge, massive crowd, even without any. Any audio assistance, you know, speakers.
[00:29:58] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:29:59] Speaker A: Everybody heard what they needed to hear.
[00:30:02] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:30:03] Speaker D: I remember the first time that I.
My husband Paul and I went to Dharamsa was in 2000, and His Holiness had just come out of a retreat, and he was going to give some group audiences in the garden, that we would walk around in the circle. And I remember there were a group of people trying to get this audience, and it was the Westerners audience, and people were really aggressive, like, pushing, trying to get the passes. And then finally we. Finally we lined up. We were going to go in, and I remember watching each person walking around and he would shake someone's hand, and they would be crying on the other side, on the other and hugging each other.
They would walk and they'd be, like, trying to be, like, really diligent, nice or aggressive or whatever. And the moment they met him, they totally change. And then they'd be holding and hugging each other, every single person. And then I remember when I finally.
It was my turn, he just took my hand and pulled me really close, looked into my eyes, and I thought, everything's going to be okay.
I remember feeling like everything's okay. This is why everyone's hugging each other.
But he was so, so kind. I just remember that. And I thought, that's the kind of person I want to be, to be able to have that ability to help people see that they don't have to try so hard to and just be. It was a beautiful moment, but I thought that's the moment that I want to be able to write about, where someone thinks, oh, something different's happening now, and this is actually what life really is about.
[00:31:47] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:31:48] Speaker A: Now are you.
So now the book is out or would be coming up to the book signing?
[00:31:55] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:31:56] Speaker A: Soon. Tibet House, and maybe some other ones. But on the other hand, you know, we don't have bookstores in Los Angeles and Denver and, like, and. And Boulder and all this. And how are we. How. What do you feel? What are your hopes about that? And I think you can represent it very beautifully. But how are we going to get you everywhere? That's a very key thing.
[00:32:20] Speaker D: You know, actually, I haven't thought about that yet, but good to put in my head. I mean, I've been. I've been trying to do little promotional things, you know, Instagram.
[00:32:34] Speaker A: Well, in a sense, yes. In other words, I think you should feel that you represent a great six, I think, to people.
[00:32:41] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:32:42] Speaker A: And it's wonderful because also your ethnic background and how he really loved everybody. And everybody loved him. That was the thing.
Whatever, whoever it was, in whatever role, everyone really did love him. Even the people who tried to kill him and failed, they actually liked him, actually.
You know, it's like people.
They actually like someone, but then they have all these constructs that are still controlling what they. How they behave.
And then they go against what they like. You know what I mean? They will go against. Even despite of the fact that they actually love the person, they'll still just try to destroy them anyway because they think they should, or they have to because of some other goal they have, or, you know, because they're not quite fully feeling the life of the other person that. Who they really do like.
It's like this thing of, you know, Buddha nature with the Buddha nature. We all know that life is a wonderful gift, and we're very blessed by being alive.
And yet we sort of don't know that. We know that.
[00:33:48] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:33:49] Speaker D: Yeah, I was thinking about that too. That on every new project that I do that I don't know anything about, then I suddenly realized, oh, actually, there's a whole bunch of life I don't know about.
How.
How do I take this on without feeling overwhelmed? I mean, this is the moment. So what. What do you do? And so I don't really know. But I also feel like I.
That I've been blessed by your asking me to write about him and then getting it. Be able to meet this Dalai Lama.
Because I feel like there. There's a kind of total vastness of the Dalai Lamas that we need to understand how to be like that in some way, to be more tolerant of others.
I. I always think of the 14th Dalai Lamas being the most open person I've ever met.
[00:34:51] Speaker A: That's a coin I'm. I'm working on right now very much myself. In the sense of even.
It is possible to translate emptiness as openness.
It has very deep roots in the sense of yes.
Like the zero in the mathematical world is where there's an open place to put a number.
[00:35:17] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:35:18] Speaker A: By being next to another number, it magnifies that present that number that's like 1 or 2 or 3 or 4. The 0 can do all sorts of amazing things.
And also the verb root in Sanskrit being shri, which is cognate with our English, swell.
Swell up. Like a seed swells up.
[00:35:38] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:35:39] Speaker A: Woman's womb swells up to gestate a new being.
So there's a possibility, and it's not perfect, but it's, it's possible. And so then if enlightenment is total open mindedness.
[00:35:55] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:56] Speaker A: You know, isn't it weird that omniscience should be total open mindedness? Our mistake about it is thinking that omniscience is meaning having a big formula that somehow controls everything. The world as something. Other concepts that you have a big bunch of knowledge in the sense of formulas and concepts and calculations are supposedly going to control all these inconceivable realities around us. Whereas total open mindedness completely is one with them all and knows them that way.
[00:36:32] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:36:34] Speaker A: As they know themselves or something.
It's a kind of koan, isn't it? It's like, it's like one of those paradoxes.
So, so it's Buddha, the total open minded person then who in a way is not holding any quote what we think of as structured knowledge, but is open to the existence of every being and thing. What do you think?
[00:36:56] Speaker D: Yeah, I like that idea a lot because I, I feel like sometimes the word emptiness seem so cold and, and yes. And also it's become such a cliche when I hear someone say it. It almost means nothing. It's nothing. Not. It's not.
[00:37:14] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:37:15] Speaker D: Potential to be anything. This and I, I think negation.
[00:37:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:21] Speaker A: I'm with. Openness is sort of that. Then your mind immediately jumps to what is it that is open?
[00:37:27] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:37:28] Speaker A: Whereas emptiness kind of you, you lose.
[00:37:30] Speaker D: Everything, kind of shuts it. Or, or maybe it's because of how we've been raised to think that.
[00:37:38] Speaker A: No, I don't think so. I think it's in every language in a sense that, you know, if you look at the book of the dead or, or the Tantric without being a book of the dead, the Tantric thing of the eight dissolution processes or 10 in the case of Kalan Turka or whatever it is, then the threshold of clear light is, is a kind of nothingness experience.
It's like you have to go past a fear that when you completely open you're going to be nothing.
[00:38:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:38:09] Speaker A: So. So you have actually you're. The last thing your mind reifies is a, is an experience of nothing.
It could trap you into being a formless realm deity if you, if you weren't prepared with them within, with the relativity, you know, so, so, so there is a kind of surrender like, like when you fall asleep, you completely surrender your consciousness.
[00:38:32] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:38:33] Speaker A: But then when you're asleep, you're in clear light. That's why you feel better when you wake up.
[00:38:38] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:40] Speaker A: You can have a dream. So. But I'm just saying. So. So in other words, what I'm trying to say is that what you did, and in my trailing along, me kind of trailing along with it, you brought to life the dilemma. Sort of not protected by the special guards and all the. All the structures of the status and et cetera, and. Oh, it's a dilemma. And then the party guards and the office and officials, et cetera, et cetera. Lately, the security detail, just right there, face to face and in an embrace with all the people, actually.
[00:39:18] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:39:19] Speaker A: And, you know that. And, you know, I think a sensitive reader will feel maybe that that's still the same person, you know.
[00:39:30] Speaker D: Yeah, I. I certainly felt like I loved going back to write the story because I felt.
[00:39:38] Speaker A: Well, I love rereading it, you know, every time I read it again, I practically want to just sit about and read it again, and then I'm worrying about am I going to really have much fun in this scene that we have in there. But I don't care because I like to go along, travel along with him.
So much fun to be with him in any situation that he's in, how he thinks about the people, how they behave with him, how he reacts to that. It's just really. It's a world, you know, it's like a real world. Yeah, it's like. It's like, you know, AI created worlds.
Any intelligence.
Any intelligence.
[00:40:21] Speaker D: It's kind of funny because I definitely felt completely sucked into his world while I was writing and that. That I was just right there, going to witness it. And that's. That's why at the end, I got really sad, too.
[00:40:39] Speaker A: Well, we may have to do a sequel, you know, how can we research, though? You know, I don't know if.
If. If I ever, you know, His Holiness told Jimbala to get me the book about the Mongolian guy, you know, went off to teach the Mongolians, you know, that division of him. And I know. I don't know if I ever got that book, and I don't know how we research, if there is whatever record there is of these actual sayings and doings, I would be able to do that. That could be an amazing sequel because that's. I'm sure what's amazing. All of that too, you know?
[00:41:14] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:41:16] Speaker D: And there is that. That one book I suddenly forgot the name of the guy who did write about the. A Person who Met the Dalai Lama.
[00:41:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know if I've seen that book. I don't. Maybe I did. You know, unfortunately, some things get in my shelf.
My books are hard to find them in my bookshelves, you know, especially.
[00:41:43] Speaker D: I have a lot of books now too. And anytime I clean up, if I move something around, it's dangerous.
It's like, where did that.
[00:41:50] Speaker A: Look at yourself. So there's a hope, but no. Anyway, I'm just saying there's. There's no. It's a wide open space, maybe 40 years. I think people sort of throw bigger. That's why 17,006 or 17,046.
What's it. How to chronicle those 40 years.
[00:42:14] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah, yeah.
[00:42:16] Speaker A: And how to collect whatever traces of little myths and. Like the one where he somehow went back to Lhasa as a. No. Monkhan without identifying himself.
Did he see the seventh Dalai Lama? I don't know. What did he do and see?
It could be very. It must be quite interesting. Yeah, yeah, really interesting, you know.
[00:42:37] Speaker D: Oh, we got our new project.
New project coming.
[00:42:43] Speaker A: Maybe. I don't know.
[00:42:44] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:42:45] Speaker D: And I. I don't know what next as far as my representation, but I would love to talk about him because.
[00:42:55] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:42:56] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:42:56] Speaker D: Because he.
He helped me in my life. Right.
[00:43:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:43:03] Speaker A: Yeah. So. Well, one. One thing could be to collect the poems that we didn't manage to include because there are many other poems.
[00:43:11] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:43:12] Speaker A: And then your take on all of them and do a different volume. It's. But different people have done different versions of different things. And then there are some that people are kind of questioning on what basis is this really him or somebody else? And blah, blah, blah.
So that's a. That's a very fertile thing, I think.
[00:43:29] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:43:29] Speaker D: For a while I actually thought of writing poems in reply to them about.
[00:43:35] Speaker A: Oh, you did? Oh, wow.
[00:43:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:43:37] Speaker A: Like a renga. Like a renga sort of thing in the haiku world. Right. You heard the renga.
[00:43:42] Speaker D: And it would actually be from someone that met him and. But was kind of anonymous, like out in the crowd. And then.
[00:43:52] Speaker A: Did he. Did he keep writing poems as. No. Mon Khan.
[00:43:55] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:43:56] Speaker A: Mongolia. Yeah, undoubtedly, actually.
And.
And that's a really interesting thought.
Do you know that story about Basho traveling with his friend in the west coast of Japan, coming back from the deep north, you know, in that. In that old book, you know, and that's what it is, an episode in the deep north.
And his friend departs to go somewhere else toward the end, and he says goodbye to him at a ferry landing. And he's about to depart in another direction on a ferry and then the headman of the village with a delegation from the village come to him before he gets on the next ferry.
And they say, well, Mr. Basho, we know that your leaving and we observed you and your friend riding linked haikus rengar, you know, and actually our forefathers, grandfathers and whatever used to do that because someone had taught them to do that. And although we're crude villagers, farmers, we used to enjoy doing that. We lost the tradition.
Would you consider coming back for a while and reteaching us how to do linked verse with each other, the simple villagers? So he says he did that, but he never mentions what he wrote or what they wrote, you know. And then he did. Then I left later, you know, so it's an episode there.
So, so that could be so interesting actually.
[00:45:25] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it's.
[00:45:27] Speaker A: It's the same. I think it's similar century. I think Basho, isn't he the 18th century. I forget.
[00:45:33] Speaker D: I was thinking when we finished it that one day I thought, oh, it'd be really interesting if I wrote some poems from the point of view of a little girl who met him when he was passing through some kind of entourage and she followed along whatever he wrote as she was growing older and she would write these poems about him.
So that was one thing that came to me.
[00:46:00] Speaker A: Fantastic. Fantastic. So. So then. So maybe we're coming to a little bit toward the end of the.
Because these kind of things, it's important.
Supposedly people say not to go on for hours. Hours. Although I love to. But maybe in conclusion, would you.
And you could take as little time as you like.
Would you imagine what kind of effect the wide readership of this novel at this time in this culture, Anglo speaking, but worldwide but speak people speak English obvious at the moment.
What. What would be your most hoped for effect in. In people widely entering through your guidance the world of the great Six Tanyang. The Ocean Song. By the way, I made the name Ocean Song. Did you see that? Yeah, that's. I wanted to be really short.
[00:47:01] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:02] Speaker A: The ocean of divine melody. You know, we can go on with that. But in a way this Ocean Song, I don't know. But you will work on that.
But what would be your vision of what impact it could have and ideally that you would be happy with.
[00:47:21] Speaker D: I'd be happy if people understood a little bit of how the Dalai Lamas, and in this case this particular one can make you a more thoughtful and better person by his behavior and that the Tibetan culture is so much a part of all of that and so unique in that way. The. The language and the people that I've met, they have this kindness that. And compassion that I had never met before when. Until I met them.
And if this story could make people know something more about them and also feel like they could be better people themselves from knowing them, that that would be a nice thing. And also, I feel like a lot of times people feel like they have to behave a certain way if they hear the word Rinpoche or High Llama, and.
And it's not how you feel it's supposed to be. If you're a religious person or a spiritual person, you're a spiritual person. When you learn how to be just more open and aware of others and kind to others and not judge them. And I feel like the six Dalai Lama was like that.
He was very open, he was very kind, and he was not treated well.
And yet he was. He still continued to be like that. He was still very loving.
And at the end of the book, I miss start to miss him.
Didn't want to finish.
[00:49:12] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:49:12] Speaker D: So I. I haven't thought about that, but it's a really, really good question. What is the takeaway that I'd like people to have?
If, if, if the reader could feel this sense that they want to be more part of the world and not have to be famous for it, but just be more kind and loving, that would be great too, wouldn't it?
[00:49:37] Speaker A: Hasan Khan, he was so enthused when he saw a better future by being pals and really mobilizing and implementing his friendship with His Holiness. The Ocean Song.
His Holiness. Ocean Song. And when he. When. When Pendellamo taught him through the chess set.
[00:50:03] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:50:05] Speaker A: And then it was shot down by someone who also, you know, but who was misimagining a positive future where they thought by dominating everything, they would have a good future because of basically being afraid of themselves and the world and thinking the only way to really be happy is to control everything.
And.
And so then he was deprived of the opportunity to follow that more friendly feeling he had, you know, and I think so maybe, you know, maybe the bad guys that we really upset about right now because of their deeds, remember that, see them as people who are depriving even themselves.
[00:50:51] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:50:54] Speaker A: Like Mr. Putin. You know, imagine being happy in Kiev or in Crimea in his palace, you know, of course, he's destroyed any chance for happiness of himself. In fact, without by thinking. He could only get it by dominating other people instead of getting along with them. You know, in other words, what I'm saying, giving himself to them.
[00:51:14] Speaker D: I did think of one thing that I didn't mention was I feel like it's. It was a real misunderstanding for people to label him the naughty Dalai Lama or the one who is.
I feel that they. They didn't understand him at all. They didn't understand what he was trying to do and his. His actions were not some kind of sexual depravity.
Well like to try and interpret in his poems if they feel knowledgeable about it. But that he was just. He was very, very kind and because of that and very loving people misunderstood him.
[00:51:49] Speaker A: They wanted to take him and didn't he.
It demonstrated certain llamas that you. We also brought to life who couldn't imagine anything other than some frozen separation from other people.
[00:52:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:52:09] Speaker D: Giving up a rigidity of a hierarchy. I think because didn't have that. I think that's what I really admired.
[00:52:16] Speaker A: Told people when they saw him that he was so fine but he couldn't see any head.
[00:52:21] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:52:23] Speaker A: That was really deep vision. Actually didn't see his face in the sense that his, his. He was not isolated from you by being behind his face only.
So it's a kind of compliment which he didn't realize. He thought it was a big put down.
[00:52:39] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:52:41] Speaker A: So anyway, Annie. Bien. I'm so proud. And by the way. Okay. You have an opportunity in case you want to take it, where you could have your first podcast yourself by interviewing me.
[00:52:55] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:52:56] Speaker A: As we did. You know, I had this experience with Mark Hyman where you know, who wrote a great book I really like called Food Fix, which is we can liberate people's health in the world and sort of repair things with. And the environment even by what we. By our own eating. You know. And he goes to the Congress. He knows I was thinking about the food industry and so on. Agriculture and food, you know, in America. Anyway. But I, I wrote to secretaries. Could. Could you do be on my podcast please? You know, with your food fixed. So he immediately said well yeah, I will. Then you have to be on my podcast. So that's become a little bit of a habit.
And then that way, you know, if you start one, you can be in San Francisco and Boulder without having to get on a plane, you know.
[00:53:44] Speaker C: Oh yeah.
[00:53:45] Speaker A: Hong Kong and whatever. If people pick up on it. I mean it's a matter of how to. How it spreads. And that's, that's, that's a crapshoot, you know. But, but anyway, you could have that opportunity. But it's your choice if you want to.
[00:53:59] Speaker D: Yes.
[00:54:01] Speaker A: I'd be available to you.
[00:54:03] Speaker D: Oh, very nice. Okay.
[00:54:04] Speaker A: Very good. That's all Right.
[00:54:06] Speaker C: Thank you so much.
[00:54:07] Speaker A: Although I might mischedule it and end up two things and at the same time.
[00:54:11] Speaker C: By yourself.
[00:54:12] Speaker A: That often happens nowadays, even triple. Sometimes I'm supposed to be three places at one time, which of course I can't do. And you might find yourself getting like that if, if, if you agree. If, if Ocean Song has his way, he will want you to be. To represent him in. In many other venues also.
[00:54:33] Speaker D: Thank you.
[00:54:33] Speaker A: Thank you so much for talking with us and, and it was really a pleasure, as it was a great pleasure working with you. And I also miss that we don't have, I don't know, 7th, 10th, 13th.
I wrote a great movie script about the 13th, actually, with a fictional thing. Really amazing, you know, and this might be the one to start. You know, one llama, by the way, told me, sent me a crystal rosary through immediate, an intermedium metiary and from Nepal, one of the incarnational ones, younger ones, and said I had to make a movie about grade 14th based on our book, you know, the, you know, the. The man of Peace book, using that as a storyboard. Obviously not all of it is so long, but some major points. And it was. It was my destiny and I had to do it and blah, blah, blah. So I sent a message back, look, I don't really have those connections, et cetera, et cetera, but I'll broach it to people who do and see if they want to do it and that it's very hard to do that because of the presence of the people in Hollywood, you know, and some people in Hollywood. But this would be a better place to start, you know, the fifth. Sixth.
[00:55:50] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:55:51] Speaker A: Yeah, you have the fifth 13th, Tim. And then, you know, the second is amazing with his relationship with Pendellamo at the. At the Lotus Lake there, you know, I mean, it's a llama lake, you know, every single one of them is amazing, you know, so we'll see.
[00:56:08] Speaker D: So nice talking to you, Bob, and take care.
[00:56:12] Speaker C: Yes, bye.
[00:56:13] Speaker A: Thank you, Andy. Thanks to Paul also.
[00:56:16] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:56:17] Speaker A: Okay, bye.
[00:56:18] Speaker C: Bye.
[00:56:33] Speaker B: The Bob Thurman podcast is produced through Creative Commons no derivatives license.
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