[00:00:14] Speaker A: Welcome to my Bob Thurman podcast.
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[00:00:48] Speaker B: This is episode 342.
[00:01:20] Speaker A: Okay. Hello everybody. So happy to be here today with you and particularly happy because I have with me the wonderful Carolyn Sharp, who's the author of this wonderful book, fire it up and four secrets to reigniting intimacy and joy in your relationship.
And there's one match lighting another right here.
And actually I'm not. I'm getting over a call, but it's just some clearing thing. Sorry for that noise. So Carolyn Sharp earned a Master of Social Work from Portland State University and has extensive training in attachment neuroscience, trauma and mindfulness. Today she's an experienced couple therapist with 25 years of training. I don't really believe that you're much too young. How can you have told 25 years.
[00:02:17] Speaker C: If I needed more reasons to love you now you've just given me another.
[00:02:21] Speaker A: Helping people build vital, vibrant and secure functioning relationships through one on one and group couples coaching workshops, retreats and intensives. And so we're so delighted to have you here. And just let me say that your first principle in your intro of five principles of healthy relationships that the couple should.
Sorry, the couple should decide our relationship is the most important component of our well being.
That is just threw me for a loop. And I wish 58 years ago when Nina and I got together, we had this book would have been really ample. All we had was Dr. Spock and worrying about the kids who were bent on coming. So we knew that that would be important. But to put the relationship as a third thing, as you put in one later on in the book, it's really so much fun. So anyway, so how are you today, Carolyn?
[00:03:23] Speaker C: And I am wonderful.
[00:03:25] Speaker A: And how are you enjoying, you know, promoting the book and talking with people, doing book tours and things? Are you doing that?
[00:03:33] Speaker C: Yeah. I have been on, I don't know, 20 podcasts and I have gotten to speak. I got to speak in Costa Rica at a therapist retreat and I got to present to the New York Times to help the employees with their relationships, journalists having to reach across with different difficult people.
So I have gotten to do a couple of readings at bookshops and it's just been such a gift.
[00:04:02] Speaker A: Many people in languor relationships, relationships or having lost relationship have Flung themselves at your feet to wish they had done better or whatever, you know, quite a few, I would think.
[00:04:15] Speaker C: Well, you know, one of the challenges I see is that folks don't want to acknowledge that their relationship is difficult. They don't want to acknowledge that they struggle. So I've had a number certainly say, this is so helpful. And you know, one of the things I tried to do so much in the book was normalize that relationships are very difficult to try and ease that burden of feeling like, oh, something's wrong with me that I struggle with this.
[00:04:43] Speaker A: Well, you know, nothing's wrong with you. You're absolutely right on. Fire it up is where it goes. But you know, because. And the people who have to fire it up most of all to begin with are the females who get the males to actually behave properly.
That's. I, I know that, you know, I'm supposedly a male, but when you reach an age or pretty beyond it or. But the thing is that the males get too much involved in unknown career or their accomplishment or the whatever it is, you know, to really make that the relationship. And, and tell us more about how do you explain that, how it is. It's the third saying, for example, in a relationship.
[00:05:24] Speaker C: Well, people tend to think, humans tend to think in very binary ways.
[00:05:30] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:05:31] Speaker C: You versus me, us versus them. And in relationships that manifest as your needs versus my needs. And we don't typically think about our relationship as its own organism. And it really is, when we reflect on it, that you may be doing well, I may be doing well. But if we're not focusing on our, our attention, on the health of our relationship, there is going to be struggle that will then impact my well being and your well being. And so to frame it in that way, I have found it really empowering to people to recognize, here's what our relationship needs. We need a certain amount of time together, time apart, time doing things we, you know, that we have in common. All that, you know, physical contact. All of those things. Yeah, that it helps to think about it in that way.
[00:06:23] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. That's very, very important. And then people evaluating their relating habits from their siblings and from their growing up and things. I think your chapter in that or your, your work on that is amazing. Can you say more about that?
One thing I also really liked about your book is you often use case studies and then you give yourself and Jeff come to know a little bit.
You give, you, you give your own issues with you and Jeff. I think that's very, very sweet and very compelling. I Think it's persuasive. It shows that you're not also hiding behind some facade of the, of the perfected professional, but you're, you know about, you know that you know the reality of the thing. Right. Yourself. Right. So, so, so when you, when you, when you first got together with Jeff, were you already in this field or were you. You did you.
[00:07:22] Speaker C: I was, Yeah, I was. I was already a couples therapist. I had recently divorced. My first hu. We had divorced, and I had gone through the pain of a relationship really not working out, not being what I expected, not knowing how to do the work that was necessary to keep a relationship healthy. And so when I met Jeff, I was now a couples therapist. I had been trained so beautifully by the brilliant Stan Tatkin and his wife Tracy in impact therapy. And so I knew what a healthy relationship needed. And so both the combination, I think for both Jeff and I, the combination of the pain of, of losing a relationship and a relationship faltering and failing and my training as a therapist.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: Right.
[00:08:10] Speaker C: What helped us build a relationship very strongly from the ground up.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: Right.
[00:08:15] Speaker C: But even with that, we still struggle because human beings are difficult. This life of being human is, Is not easy.
[00:08:24] Speaker A: And I know, but you and Jeff are very high functioning, very, very, relatively speaking, you know, fine human beings. And yet still you're saying, acknowledging those difficulties, which is absolutely the case. I completely agree with you. And. But then it occurs to me then should we be recommending as a therapist that everybody, like, try. Try a first bad relationship first?
[00:08:49] Speaker C: No, I, I'm not here to recommend. Go through suffering on purpose to learn from it. You know, I mean, that's the human reality. We learn through our mistakes. We learn through our failure. When we're doing well, we're not really learning all that much. We're just doing the same thing. It's those challenges in life that help us find greater meaning and get. Become more skillful at life.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: I agree. I think it's totally right, but I think it is so fun. I mean, my wife and I each, both had a previous marriage. We each married someone quite a bit older than us at a certain point, and then that didn't work out.
And then we did both, and we weren't supple therapists and we missed some of your points, you know, but it's really great. So then you. And how you and Jeff are. What are you, 30 years on now or 20?
[00:09:44] Speaker C: Oh, no, we're only 10.
Almost 11 years on, so.
[00:09:48] Speaker A: Oh, really?
But that, But I, I'm very confident. I Have great confidence in you both.
[00:09:55] Speaker C: We do as well. Yeah. I mean, it. It. And a healthy relationship is as much about the decision to stay in it and choose each other every day, even when it's hard as it is like a good match.
And people nowadays with social media and dating apps and all that sort of stuff, they're trying to find the perfect match. And, you know, if anybody's watching, I'm making these heavy quotation marks with my hands to say there is no perfect match.
And it's. It's about choosing to do the work to keep the relationship healthy. And that's something that I am very confident in. Jeff and I are both extremely committed, and we have a blended family of four children between us that are very attached. My daughter has told me if you. If you and Jeff broke up, I. I would be traumatized and I would, you know, then I would have three families to visit at Christmas. And so, like, we're under the threat of, you know, whatever family war.
[00:10:57] Speaker A: You each had two children to start with, right? You each had two children from the previous one.
[00:11:01] Speaker C: He had three. I had. I had one. And now they're all four of mine. I claim them all.
[00:11:07] Speaker A: It was two a piece. Oh, well, good. So good. And. And then you didn't have more. You didn't have more together after that because four is enough.
[00:11:16] Speaker C: Four is enough. And we were in our mid-40s when we met, so, you know, the ship had. The biological ship had sailed.
[00:11:24] Speaker A: I know, I know. Wow. It's so great, though, that you. So tell. Maybe as we should. You want to go through your five principles?
[00:11:34] Speaker C: Sure.
I would need to. I would need to pull. I would need to remind myself.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: Well, well, that's a good sign.
[00:11:46] Speaker C: Well, it's being put on the spot. I'll forget them.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: So anyway, yeah, very good sign. That means spontaneity. You're the planning one. I understand, within the group. But then your spontaneity is alive and kicking. That's wonderful.
[00:12:02] Speaker C: Yes. Yes. Well, you named the first one, which is that we recognize that the greatest contribution to our health is the health of our relationship. Yes. And I love that you loved that first thing because that's one that many people argue with me all day long because they want to. And particularly in this time and culture where our jobs and wealth and achievement are so oriented, people think that I'm talking about all self sacrifice and, you know, putting your. Your own needs secondary to your relationship. And the reality is that when our relationship is healthy, we have more capacity for our work, for Our passions for our hobbies, all of that stuff.
[00:12:55] Speaker A: Absolutely. And you know the famous thing of Elizabeth Kubler Ross that she helped 10,000 people die and not one of them regretted not having spent another day in the office.
Like, what are the most valuable things that are going on in your life and what is it that makes you capable of achieving something externally is that you are a. You are a four. Four armed, four legged, two headed being. Yep, yep, exactly.
We really. So go ahead. So that's the first one. And I totally. And I think important. I think maybe, maybe there might be a tendency you might have encountered in your thing that males are less likely to want to agree to that than females.
[00:13:43] Speaker C: I find it pretty equally. I, I honestly don't find that sex or gender has much to do with the functioning of the relationship. Having over the, you know, many years served couples, straight couples, gay couples of both, you know, lesbian and gay, you know, like they, they struggle in these same ways. I think it is more how somebody is raised to be oriented to relationship. And there are women as much as men that are raised to believe, you know, achieve first or who struggle with being taught to be codependent and they have a swing in the other direction of no, I'm just going to be happy myself first and then with what's left over, I will focus on my relationship. So I don't find it long. The male, female split in terms of it being more prevalent.
[00:14:37] Speaker A: Nice to hear because I can, you know, fe males making excuse that this is whole process made by the female and it's holding me back from like running the 22 second mile or whatever it is they're trying to do. But so I'm glad to hear that that, that, that's. Yeah.
[00:14:52] Speaker C: I mean, patriarchy certainly screws us up. It screws up both men and women in terms of these ideals of what it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman. All of that stuff that definitely impacts relationships. It just does so differently for each, each person impacted by it.
[00:15:10] Speaker A: Yes, that's right. Good. Okay, so that's number one. What's number two?
[00:15:14] Speaker C: That's number one. Number two, our relationship is a unique system with its own needs to function well. And we spoke about that a moment ago, where it's your needs, my needs and our relationship needs. And this principle is really talking about recognizing that relationship as its own entity and deserves and needs to be taken care of as such.
[00:15:36] Speaker A: Right, right, right. Very good. And how does that, can you give examples of that?
Sure.
[00:15:43] Speaker C: I mean, in my relationship With Jeff, if we go, he. He's has to travel a fair amount of work to various places. He's a geothermal. He's a geologist who studies geothermal energy and does geothermal energy. And so he goes to these sites around the country and all of these things, as well as boardrooms and, and what have you. And when he is traveling a lot and then when I'm very busy and we don't have time for our relationship, we get snappier with each other, we get shorter with each other. We sort of revert into our own sort of worlds of just functioning. And then the disconnection grows and the fighting grows. And, and so we recognize that we need to have sort of touch points.
I'm together or our relationship's going to struggle. And then consequently we're both going to be distracted and worried and stressed and cranky.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: Absolutely. And you're not going to then do your jobs that well. Yes, exactly.
That makes sense. Makes perfect sense.
[00:16:48] Speaker C: Number three, and this is the one that is the spiciest one I get the most pushback on, which is we put our partners, well, being above of our own.
[00:16:57] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:16:58] Speaker C: Pause for negative response from your listeners.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: A lot of resistance for that.
[00:17:03] Speaker C: I do, because they. Most people hear that as sacrifice yourself, become codependent, don't tend to your own needs. And instead of that, it's really about recognizing that if I am generous to you and if I breathe generosity and love toward you, you have more capacity to bring it back to me rather than the alternate, which is we're competing for the space to get our own needs met. And so if I'm truly seeing you and loving you and being present to you, I'm recognizing you need time with your bike or your book or your, you know, hobbies or whatever, and giving you that permission and that love and that support and acceptance makes you feel seen and loved and, and makes you want to reciprocate that. And so that building that culture of generosity and care feeds both of us. And it's not a, you know, me versus you proposition, zero sum game type of thing, which is what, you know, again, culturally there is sort of a zero sum orientation to most things in the world right now. And it's unfortunate.
[00:18:18] Speaker A: Yes, it really is. And that really is very deep one. You know, the Dalai Lama's whole thing about compassion, famous saying, if you want to be happy, be compassionate because that's what will make you happy.
And then. Or my old teacher used to, old Mongolian used to say that when you develop a resolve to Be more other regarding and more sort of putting yourself in other people's perspective, putting yourself in the other person's shoes.
Then the happier you get, the first person you make happier by doing that is yourself. You often can't right away figure out what the other person really needs and wants, but the fact that you're focusing on it and less on yourself makes you happier automatically. In other words, there's a tremendous support in thousands of years of Buddhist psychology for that point of view. And, you know, there is the argument in the Western psycho, among Western psychologists that there's no true altruism because the altruist they have observed feels better about themselves once they're more altruistic. So therefore they consider altruism as selfish. And then. But from the Buddhist point of view, that's not a disadvantage, that's a bonus.
Rather, it should be seen that way. That's a key bonus. It doesn't make you a martyr. But it was where the resistance will come from, the idea of compassion, fatigue, all this kind of thing. So that's great that you. And then how did you come up with that? I mean, this is just from your observing of couples, or how did you develop this?
[00:19:53] Speaker C: This is something that, you know, these, these principles were developed in response, reaction and integration of Stan Tatkin's work, who founded the psychobiological approach to couples therapy. And so his orientation is very much, we take care of our partner first. We build a culture of generosity and love. And, you know, the science backs it up now. And I remember I saw the Dalai Lama in Seattle. He came through and he said on stage, religion has failed to get people to do the right thing. It has failed. It's now we need scientists to lead the charge. And science is backing up the thousands of years of Buddhist teachings to say, when we are in service to others, our mental health improves. And whether it's selfish or not selfish or, you know, all that sort of stuff, we feel better. And in that particular principle, every. I call this my sort of Runway, that every couple has a different length Runway before they're willing to buy into this. And they resist and resist and resist. And then they come back in to me and they say, we did it and it worked.
I know, that's why I teach it, that's why I tell you to do it, because it works. But everyone is very suspicious of that at first glance.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: And the science totally does it.
He's really right about that. And you're really right. It's really good. And then, okay, so then number Four.
[00:21:28] Speaker C: The safety and well being of our relationship is founded on fairness and justice.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: Yes, fairness and justice.
[00:21:36] Speaker C: This one no one has a problem with.
They agree that this is important. Most couples that come in, there's a fairness and a justice problem, either real or perceived, that one person feels like they're over giving, overdoing and the other person is under giving or underdoing.
But you know, in, in, in real terms the, the couple has co created whatever dynamic they have. And so if there is fairness and justice built in, they need to look at together. How did, how did this, how did we build this? Why did we build this in our relationship?
[00:22:12] Speaker A: I always wash the dishes, but, but that's not enough. I now lately that once I retired I've got more into cooking myself somewhat and I'm learning that and that's been very much fun actually learning it a little more and taking the time, making the time, you know, and of course, and that's been one of our central things is justice and fairness. But that one and the third one, it makes me think that then there's a preliminary thing, that there must be some spiritual. Then there's this issue of divorcing, I shouldn't use that word, separating the spiritual from the religious.
You know, a couple in initial compatibility, an initial love, falling in love. They should be, it's a, maybe a warning signal to one or the other. If they don't share some sort of spiritual attitude about life, you know, then I think it's, then relationships will be difficult automatically. But if you take, if you take it doesn't mean they have to be the same religion or even religious.
Is it spiritual? What does it mean? Spiritual means that there's something beyond just immediate transactional mutual satisfaction, I guess, you know, mutual and then satisfaction. There has to be some, some sort of other source of identity.
[00:23:31] Speaker C: Yeah, that alignment. And that to me comes to that, that purpose that I talk about in the, in the book and that first section of the book of having a shared purpose of what's our relationship for? What's our life together for?
[00:23:46] Speaker A: Right, right, right.
Yes. Can you tell us about how for example we know that for an individual was one of the things that schools deal with very clumsily, but they do and should. Which is what is a person's, an individual's purpose in life.
Right. To have a purpose driven life.
[00:24:06] Speaker C: Right.
[00:24:07] Speaker A: There's a famous religious, famous Christian fundamentalist guy in California wrote that book. Purpose Driven Life was very popular book. But. And he, of course he has it within his religious framework. But the idea of purpose and having a purpose is very, is very kind of important. Do you discuss about how or what do you say about how the purpose of the relationship, does that require that the individuals have their own idea of their own purpose? Or how does that, how do those things relate?
[00:24:41] Speaker C: Yes, ideally, everyone, I mean, and I haven't found that people don't have a purpose, more that they don't know what their purpose is. The exercise of contemplating what is the purpose of my life is something that is part of many spiritual traditions, but not necessarily part of American life to be oriented toward building a life of meaning and purpose. So it's more that people haven't contemplated it. And certainly I find more often than not, I would say the vast majority of time couples haven't thought about it. What's the purpose of our relationship?
[00:25:19] Speaker A: They often haven't thought about it individually.
[00:25:21] Speaker C: You're saying they haven't thought about it individually, but almost always couples have not thought about it together. What's right and defining the purpose of.
[00:25:31] Speaker A: Our relationship, Maybe the couples being coached to do that or couples finding that as a principle through, for example, encountering your book and the wisdom and the experience in your book, maybe then, then the idea of making a purpose of the relationship makes them reflect. Well, what about my own purpose too? Is there, how does that fit? Or is it all only the relationship? Or then what do I bring in terms of a purpose of myself? So I think that would help them. And absolutely, absolutely, purpose does mean. Actually as I'm saying this, I'm remembering I have a colleague at Columbia that I, he was being a little bit shocking because he was talking to a religious group. But he really over emphasized how the grown up thing to do was to realize that life is meaningless and purposeless. He was a serious materialist philosopher. And maybe that is a, that's a little bit of a disease that we have in, in the American culture having to do with our philosophical materialism as it embeds itself in the culture.
So a relationship automatically, your third principle is altruism within the relationship being beneficial for you as well as the relationship. So it has two beneficiaries. At least I know definitely the person you're being altruistic with. So all three are benefit and neutral one, then six. There's six fold benefit. And that makes you think spiritually. And then you think what is the purpose of the relationship? Is it just to make each other happy or what? What do people come up with?
[00:27:08] Speaker C: It's, it's a, it's a great Question. Because many people haven't thought about it. And the automatic response I typically get is a relationship. The purpose of our relationship is love. And as you likely know, as someone who's been married for 58 years, love isn't a constant state of feeling. So it's not a purpose that is enough to really sustain the hard work necessary to stay in, in a healthy relationship. So. And couples are always a little bit discouraged when I say that, you know, love isn't enough. And I sometimes feel like the doom cloud of relationships. I'm like, no, love isn't enough. And relationships are hard, but what people come up with. And I'll use Jeff and mine as the most readily thought of example. We create a life of adventure where we encourage each other to be our best selves.
As, you know, the components of, you know, we love to play, we love to see new things, we love to learn, we love to, you know, explore. So that's the adventure part. And then we're both very growth oriented. He is a, he's a learner. His brain is giant and he loves to, he's just always consuming more information. He's a scientist and I'm a, I'm an emotional spiritual studier of the human experience and I love connection. And so I am always sort of trying to grow and learn through relationships. Surprise.
Together we're, we're. Yeah, yeah. He challenges me because, you know, science and math or my brain just wants to blow up. And for him, not that he's not good at relationships, he is, he's just, he lives in his, his intellect a lot more.
[00:29:00] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:29:00] Speaker C: Yeah. And so it's challenging for him. It's not his comfort spot. And so that's the purpose of our relationship.
But for others it's creating, you know, contributing to the world. It's travel, it's exploration of our inner worlds.
[00:29:18] Speaker A: It's family and bringing up the children.
Are you, are you, is your, are you empty nested already now?
[00:29:26] Speaker C: Yes, we are empty now. Our youngest one is in college.
[00:29:30] Speaker A: Right, right, right. Yeah. So that, so that's of course lives those learning, dealing with them. And then how does it relate to the, the relationship between the two, the two adults? Then there's the, there are all these relationships with the children that is that. How does that connect?
Not always, of course.
[00:29:52] Speaker C: Yeah. And couples with children will often default to. Our relationship is about building a healthy family or being good parents or that sort of thing. And I always encourage couples not to have a purpose that is separate from their relationship as parents because you Know the kids will grow and flee the nest. Fly the nest.
[00:30:16] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:30:17] Speaker C: And then you don't want to wake up and not recognize your partner separate from your role as parents. So having focus on your relationship as its own entity and as each other as humans that aren't just parents, you know, that isn't role dependent on your profession or your kids or those sorts of things helps us see each other in the bigger way, in the, in the more meaningful way that is beyond these temporary transitory things.
So I think that, that doing that and working on the relationship as it's, as itself. And, and we spoke about this as the relationship being the most important thing in our well being helps feed the children. It provides a healthy model for relationships.
[00:31:02] Speaker A: Oh it does, it does deal with them much better, of course.
[00:31:06] Speaker C: Yeah, Better parents are happier, healthier parents.
So you know, it feeds everything. You know that in terms of the beneficiaries of this generosity and altruism in a relationship, the children are our beneficiaries. Your neighbor, the barista that made your coffee as a beneficiary, when you leave the home in connection with your partner rather than in disconnection and fight, that barista is going to see two different humans in one example or the other.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: Yes, yes. Actually the, the relationship you, I love in your book, how you talk about you and Jeff, how you were with your siblings as affecting how you react to each other, exploration of that with each other and you know, your trigger reactions and things like that. I thought you did. You explained that really well. And my wife and I are also both second children. We all had olders, she a brother and me a brother also. And bullying by older brothers is, creates, creates certain reaction patterns that are very hard you. And it's very important to be, try to be aware of that. And I like the way you explained that very, very much. And you were, you were you and Jeff both first eldest child children or soul children or.
[00:32:30] Speaker C: He is the eldest of three and I am the youngest of three.
And he was closer in age to his two younger siblings than I was. I'm. I'm five and seven years younger than my elder sister and elder brother. And so we had very different experiences as well as culturally. He grew up in Southern California and I grew up in, in suburban New York. And so very different, very different cultures around relationships. And so our wiring, our patterning about, you know, he's a very performance based person because eldest children often have to be very successful. They have to achieve and be good. And so he, he has that to trigger that trip, brain trip of like feeling criticized or having to be perfect in order to feel worthy of love. And then I had, you know, not feeling like I belonged, not feeling like anybody wanted me.
[00:33:30] Speaker A: That you're so cheerful and jolly. You said you were so unpopular and all this in school.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:39] Speaker C: You l. The New England boarding school is a cold and unwelcoming place for some. And that was.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: Oh, really?
[00:33:49] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:33:50] Speaker A: New England. Yeah. I'm a New Yorker.
[00:33:52] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:33:53] Speaker A: I consider living in Massachusetts as we did for 20 years, like, like a little bit exile in. Exile from New York. From New. From the different atmosphere, you know. Yes, you did.
I see. So where. Okay, so, so that's interesting. So the sibling. That's a very different sibling experience.
Your conscious way of reconstructing care about approach, how you approach the other, how you deal with how you stop flaring tempers and things as being different for the two of you and so on. Different trigger points. That was really a very, very fascinating. Really good. And people should really, I mean this book is really helpful. People should really use it in their relationships, I think very much. Even if they come to it late. Maybe 58 years, maybe, maybe our 60. 60. But 10 years from now, if we use this, we'll be happier in our 90s, if that's possible.
[00:34:57] Speaker C: It's never too late. I had a couple recently that have been married for 42 years and they were on the verge of. Of deciding whether to, you know, pursue life on their own.
[00:35:07] Speaker A: I know.
[00:35:09] Speaker C: And they, you know, committed to the process that's. That's laid out here and fell in love within a couple of meetings. Fell back in love with each other within a couple of meetings. And it was like, it was just so profound to watch that.
[00:35:24] Speaker A: Wonderful. Have you had many times that experiences in your. In your profession?
[00:35:29] Speaker C: Yeah, a number of, you know, I mean, that's why I was inspired to write the book that yes, we make it harder. I mean, and, and as a Buddhist teacher, you know, this, we make it harder. We make our own lives harder than they need to be and we make our relationships harder than they need to be. You know, the Samsara and the, the struggles we, we. We put upon ourselves and not being able to get out. And this is my, my contribution. Contribution to trying to help people get out of the same circle of suffering that they put themselves.
[00:36:02] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. That's really, really, really interesting.
Really interesting. So does Jeff ever help you in your job? No.
You have your separate jobs, right?
[00:36:14] Speaker C: We have our separate jobs. But he. When I do retreats. I just had a retreat in Italy last year. I'm supposed to have one in October, but I'm not sure people are really up for travel.
[00:36:26] Speaker A: If the current nonsense goes on, it might be difficult.
[00:36:29] Speaker C: Yeah. And spending money on their relationship in that way is.
I'm not sure. I may end up postponing it by a year.
[00:36:37] Speaker A: Tourism to America. And he's made Americans feel like they don't know how they'll get back in the country if they leave. It's one of the further destructions of the economy that people are not even facing this thing about the stock market.
[00:36:51] Speaker C: But Jeff is my assistant at retreats, so he does.
[00:36:57] Speaker A: Tourism along Europe to America is a trillion dollar industry that is, I know, totally trash now.
[00:37:04] Speaker C: I know.
[00:37:07] Speaker A: Even was quite a big thing. Tourism in China is huge. In the rest of Asia, for example, it's, you know, they do have now a big middle class and so on. Unbelievable.
[00:37:17] Speaker C: Unbelievable.
[00:37:19] Speaker A: We don't want to go there.
[00:37:20] Speaker C: I know. We could go down a very dark rabbit hole going down that particular route.
[00:37:25] Speaker A: Yes. So, so how to, how to, how are you going to proceed? Where are you going from here? With, with the book? Where you're gonna, you're. You're going to be more deeply, even into the book than ever with a larger than ever pub. Public and helping them more. What would be your next step? How are you going to, how are you going to continue this?
[00:37:50] Speaker C: I am engaging with as many people as I can find to help them recognize the impact relationships have on the quality of our lives from you know, corporations. I'm, I'm speaking with Coca Cola here in the next couple of weeks.
[00:38:10] Speaker A: Right.
[00:38:11] Speaker C: To try and create a, even a culture there of your relationships impact your creativity, your productivity, your official. All of these sorts of things.
And so it's, it's just about building experiences where.
Because my work is very experiential, I don't as much talk about relationships as I put people into relationships. You know, even strangers. When I've done demonstrations, I take two strangers and I have them practice this exercise as though they know each other and they create a deep connection in a period of time, you know, in a short period of time. And so helping people recognize and feel the difference it makes to be in connection rather than, you know, this disconnected, judgment oriented, you versus me cultural phenomenon. We have everywhere that because people voted differently or, or spend their money differently or look differently that they're bad.
[00:39:12] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:39:13] Speaker C: I don't want to know them.
You know, where the isolationism that's Happening culturally is absolutely alarming.
[00:39:22] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. I saw on Instagram this morning someone who, in England talking about how Thatcher got people to feel more and more individualized on purpose, and that the neoliberalism made people feel that they weren't in a community anymore and they made people feel more helpless about improving their situation in society and so on. Very cogent way of explaining it. And the rediscovery of community as more powerful actually, than the atomized individual. But the manipulative and authoritarian social systems pretend to promise a kind of new community, the way she put it.
But actually, people have to revive the communities they actually do have with their neighbors and their fellow workers and their. And their. Whatever their jobs are and so on. It was really very articulate in England, you know, Britain, very strong, and ending up with the thing of nobody's going to come to save us. We have to save ourselves by getting together, because doing things that we can't do just by ourselves makes us feel unable to do it, but in a group we can as a community, you know, I think that's really great. So that's. So you're heading toward the larger community. The building up of the love relationship, the marriage relationship, the sort of the oikumene, you know, the echo relationship. That is, echo means household. So building that up and then seeing that the next step would be to extend more into the larger community. That works. That's really perfect.
[00:40:56] Speaker C: Yeah, really.
I spoke at a women's empowerment event a couple of weeks ago, and one of the women in the audience was a city council person for Newburyport, the town nearest me. And we had coffee afterwards and she's taken. She took, you know, I was emphasizing curiosity as a. As a way to bridge difference. And she has taken that to the council and is applying that in her difficult relationships with people who are struggling with things. And it's, you know, I was just so inspired to hear that it's being applied in the way that I. I mean it, too. And so that's my hope that I can speak to more and more people that, you know, even if they're not in a love relationship.
[00:41:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:44] Speaker C: Can apply it to their colleagues or their neighbors or whomever to try and create deeper, richer communities.
[00:41:53] Speaker A: Well, how do you feel about how things are going? I mean, of course, I'm sure you're worried about them, but what do you think? What do you think the result will be? Do you have a prediction or do you have. Do you have an underlying sense of how it's going to go for My.
[00:42:07] Speaker C: Book or for the world.
[00:42:10] Speaker A: Starting with. With the country or with your neighborhood? The country.
[00:42:15] Speaker C: You know, my neighborhood. I, I moved from Seattle, the. A big city to, you know, northern Massachusetts in August and had, you know.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: You're in northern Massachusetts now?
[00:42:28] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:42:29] Speaker A: West or east?
[00:42:30] Speaker C: East.
[00:42:31] Speaker A: Eastern. Oh, wow. Near the seashore then.
[00:42:34] Speaker C: Yes, yes.
[00:42:35] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:42:35] Speaker C: Yes.
And had a wonderful culture shock from, you know, Seattle is very tech oriented, there's a lot of wealth, there's, you know, an orientation that is like, we're liberal, except, you know, a lot of we want to be liberal, we want to say we're liberal, but we're not going to commit our energy or our resources to solving a problem that exists for the poor among us or so on and so forth. And I came to a community that is very community oriented and does invest in taking care of neighbors and, and doing all of those things and is very welcoming. And so that makes me feel more hopeful and at the same time, to read the, to read the news, hear the news of what is, what is being put into place is frightening. And I feel very worried on the, on the political level of what is to come and how we are to recover from the damage that is being done.
[00:43:39] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:43:40] Speaker C: Not only in the political realm, but in the person to person realm. Because even diving into what's happening online, the divisiveness, divisiveness and the hostility that exists behind the screen, behind our little phones is so terrible for our well being, for our hearts.
[00:44:05] Speaker A: So in your body, in your profession, where you're dealing with couples, are you feeling that couples are more aware that this crises are pushing them more to value their relationship more, to learn what you're teaching them more easily? Is there sort of an improvement in it or is there seem to be they're getting more distracted by the horrible things from your own database, so to speak, experience database. Did you give it a hopeful thing or more?
[00:44:35] Speaker C: In some cases, yes. And in other cases with couples that are very different within their relationship. So a biracial couple where the white person is having one experience in the changes that are taking place and the person of color is having a different experience, there's some, there's some challenge there that is worrisome and is expressive of sort of that the, you know, pulling apart of different people. And then there are other people that recognize we really have to strengthen our relationship to go through this together.
Certainly couples who have a shared experience, a gay couple, a couple where there's a trans member, you know, they really need to be strong because there's there are outside forces that are harming us.
[00:45:26] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely the case, yes. You know that lady, that one that was talking this morning, she. I thought what was very insightful to me, I thought she said that the. And it relates to something I saw even a few days before that called the 89 Project.
And that's it. I don't know if you bumped into that. It's where some environmentalist oriented people managed to get polling in of all kinds of countries where you think you can't really poll because people are too scared but they, they feel they did responsible and they got around that somehow. And basically they say 89% of the people on the whole planet want the governments to react to the climate emergency see more forcefully. But, but more than 2/3 of that 89% think maybe 70% of that 89% think that they're the only ones who are worried like that. And they don't feel that there are many others around them. So they don't feel that 89% of their of their peers in there even in their own area or nation are agreeing with them. In other words they feel that they're the only one or very. They're in the fewest mole circle. So that's why they feel very hopeless. There's a tendency to feel very defeatist and hopeless because of this disparity that was. Oh yeah. And then the divisional people who are trying to divide them to get more strength in their divisive authoritarian, strongman aspiring tactics.
What they are doing is those people who feel isolated, they're offering their membership in an anger group or a hate group or you know, your problems are somebody else and you can be in my group. So they are offering an artificial type of community based on some very misinformed and negative thing. So that's their success comes from that. The people are waiting for real community but then this fake community is offered to them and sweeps them up in it and then they demonize anybody who is not absolutely in the same group.
I thought I didn't ever see it quite like that. Clearly put by people are speaking up clearly and wonderful beautifully. I think it's very, very good. I, I'm. Makes me hopeful. I think, I personally think that this won't last for even four years. I don't think so or I hope.
[00:47:44] Speaker C: I hope you're right. And you know, I mean you know the shock and awe sort of like explosion of so many, so many different executive orders and attacks on so many different things to distract us was successful to get everybody like like, you know, like Frozen in a. I don't even know what to do or say or which thing to approach. But, you know, the. The events on Saturday, the consequences so.
[00:48:11] Speaker A: Immediate, they are so immediate that, that then. And then people, because of that consequence, they have to do something. So I think then they're going to maybe be more rational about what are the sources of the disaster that they are in. You know, 16 million jobs or whatever it was that the supposed horrible Biden did. And now they are. Hundreds of thousands a day are destroying just by firing, by destroying whole industries. And. And then all these people will be having nothing to do but try to form a community, positive community. I think, I think, I think, I think it can't last at this rate. Anyway. Let's hope so.
[00:48:51] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:48:52] Speaker A: So listen, Caroline. So fire it up. I love it. Folks, this is Caroline Sharp. Four Secrets to Reigniting Intimacy and Joy. We didn't even get into the intimacy part. I think I'm too old.
But that's very key. Of course. I saw you have passion. I didn't get to read that part. I'm sorry. I didn't get up there. Allowing the spark. Okay.
I'm going to try to, as a couple, read these sections myself. We'll do another one.
[00:49:22] Speaker C: Excellent. I would love. I mean, intimacy can mean whatever you want it to mean. You're never too old to have intimacy. Spark. Passion doesn't have to rub.
[00:49:33] Speaker A: It can be a nice foot rub.
[00:49:35] Speaker C: It can be a nice foot rub. It can be watching a movie that incites passion and interest in an engaging discussion. Everybody you know. I mean.
[00:49:44] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:49:45] Speaker C: Lots of things create passion for whatever.
[00:49:50] Speaker A: A. Hats off to Carol. You. You are a spark. You really are.
I love it. Really. All the best and best.
[00:49:58] Speaker C: Thank you so much.
[00:49:59] Speaker A: Any. Any final word.
[00:50:01] Speaker C: I'm just immensely grateful to be here and to be talking to you. Total honor.
[00:50:06] Speaker A: It's my pleasure. It's all mine. Absolutely. All the best. Okay, thank you. You take care. Bring my best to Jeff.
[00:50:13] Speaker C: I. I will.
[00:50:16] Speaker A: It's really cool. Take care.
[00:50:19] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:50:19] Speaker A: See you soon. All the.
[00:50:37] Speaker B: The Bob Thurman podcast is produced through Creative Commons no derivatives license. Please be sure to like share and repost on your favorite social media platforms. It is brought to you in part through the generous support of the Tibet House U.S. menla membership community and listeners like you.
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