Speaker 2 00:00:14 Welcome to my Bob Thurman podcast. I'm so grateful. Some good friends enabled me to present them to you. If you enjoy them and find them useful, please think of becoming a member of Tibet house us to help preserve Tibetan culture. Tibet house is the Lamas cultural center in America. All best wishes. Have a great day.
Speaker 3 00:00:48 This is episode 301, my early years dreams and psychedelics.
Speaker 2 00:01:17 What happened was, uh, you know, I had, uh, was married from, uh, from 59 to 61. And then, um, I went east to try to get a lighten or something and, um, met the Tibetans and, um, and then became a monk, uh, after a little bit back and forth. And then when, um, at a certain point in being a monk back in the states in 65, 6, I decided I was gonna help leery because I knew Tim from Harvard before that and Richard and, uh, Ralph Metzner and, uh, some others in that circle. And, um, so, uh, then, um, I went to Millbrook to help Tim, I thought, uh, to, um, cool out in his struggle with the government in 60, late 65, you know, that he was early 66. And I thought my plan was to cuz I having been doing, been among for and meditating for a few years.
Speaker 2 00:02:23 I thought they could use meditation then cool down the, the, the acid and everything like that. And so I was gonna go and be an instructor at Millbrook of how to meditate without having to take actual psychedelic because they knew I had done that quite a bit myself before becoming a mom when I was sitting in my first marriage, the end of my, around the end of my first merit. So then I did stay there for a while. And then, then actually, luckily I realized at some point in that process that I, in order to get them to listen to what I was trying to share with them, I would have to get stoned again. So they would think I wasn't just a monk because of having had a bad trip or something <laugh> <laugh> so I did. And I had to say that it had such a powerful if the experience of it based on some Buddhist practice was 10 times when it had been before or, well, it's always infinite, I guess I have to say so, but it was really great, actually.
Speaker 2 00:03:24 It was very, very helpful deepen stuff enormously. And, um, but I still also tried to get them to, to know stop, not, not conflict with the authorities, you know, and then I left there just when I had an intuition that there was something gonna go wrong and they, they have a, in the, in the midst of Millbrook, they have me warning them that, um, that Gordon Lidy was about to attack them. And actually a few days after I left, he did, it was really weird, but I don't know why I had that intuition, but I did. And, uh, so I had a nice time there. And then, uh, Nana who had been already a couple a year over year separated and trying to get a divorce from Tim and had gone through the divorce, Tim refusing to sign the final papers. So she came up to Millbrook couple times to try to get him to sign the papers.
Speaker 2 00:04:17 And then she had a little bit of a trip and, um, you know, she was back in New York modeling and so on. And then we met and then I, I decided I had a vision or something, and I decided to quit being among that I, that I wasn't able to really do what comically I was supposed to do as a Mon. And that was a very fraught for me because in Tibet way, you take that battle for life. And I didn't want that. And my other Tibetan teachers to be mad at me, but I just felt that I had to do it, that my old teacher in America had told me not to be a formal monk because I had a different karma and I wouldn't listen like an idiot. So then when I did realize what he meant, I, and I gave up being among I, uh, I, uh, left Millbrook at that time.
Speaker 2 00:05:05 Then my, my, that old teacher of mine said, well, I told you not to be a monk, so it's okay. And then he wouldn't take me back or wouldn't take me anywhere else. He brought me back to Millbrook, actually he was Claire Voyant that guy. And then I met N as an ex monk. And then that was then was then we had a history, you know, well, I dropped before she doesn't take responsibility for me doing that. Okay. I had just dropped it actually about like a week before that time. But, and then I left Millbrook because I, they weren't listening to me and I was afraid they was, they were gonna get in more trouble. And, um, and then I met though, then I was open, open minded and, but it was the way I met her was also very, very interesting. And, you know, I'll say that for a later date, but, uh, had an amazing meeting with her anyway.
Speaker 2 00:05:56 And then Tim finally relented after some com little bit of confrontation, not too much. And he actually said something that was funny, turned out to be right. He said, I wonder when we did thread together, start to get together, which was not, we had some ups and downs at first, but cause the X monk and the X model, everybody on both sides thought we were nuts, you know? And um, Tim said, oh, I wondered when those true ti bed and refugees were gonna get together. <laugh> said, I thought that was, but other than he was a little bit begrudging, because of course he wasn't really wanting to let go her, um, you know, was a little bit Rumple, stilt skin, you know, and, uh, getting out of the tower type of thing. So anyway, but it was kind of fun, you know, you know, because of the illegality and the, and the, the difficulty of the culture accepting the energy explosion of the sixties, which was very, very necessary in the, in our evolution, beyond our problems of racism and colonialism and blah, blah, blah, you know, and it was really huge.
Speaker 2 00:07:01 But then there's that whole faction, which we see now in glorious, you know, reality TV in front of us, <laugh> at the moment, uh, of the culture accepting. So because of that and because of its, uh, then the illegality done by Nixon and on, um, you know, uh, everyone sort of had to go underground, you know, for 2030 years, which is too bad because the psychedelics are incredibly valuable door opener because they temporarily suspend the conceptual conditioning framework within which we imprison all of our experience. And, and, and don't really touch the deeper level of reality that we, that would really satisfy us in our life. But because, and because we are always fitting everything that happens to us into some preconceived idea. And so we have a, you know, we just follow some sort of habitual conditioned path and we basically feel resentful about that and we have irritated and so forth and life, life is unrewarding and meanwhile we greedy and angry and et cetera.
Speaker 2 00:08:08 So it's a really wonderful and useful thing. And all indigenous cultures used these things and, uh, and it was a huge breakthrough from Hoffman and then from Tim and Richard and all these people. And, um, um, uh, but on the other hand, then if people then just get used to it and they wanna stay that way, then it has turned out to be something difficult to handle. So it was very good that, uh, initially at the time when it was introduced, it was not illegal. It was experimental. A lot of psychiatrists were using it therapeutically. They were investigating it. And because it got so public and because of the STR social stress in the Vietnam war and the protest, the whole thing it got got shoved under, you know, and now I think it's coming back to where it can be really well used and possibly, you know, like Ronda, for example, was a total veteran of psychedelic, a adventuring or psycho noting let's call it psychological adventures.
Speaker 2 00:09:14 And, um, a lot, you know, he learned a lot from Haji opened his heart with that, but on the other hand, he wouldn't have been able to meet Maharaji that way. If he hadn't had a huge heart opening and brain opening by the, his tremendous amount of psychedelic adventure, but then, then nobody would give it credit, you know, for a long time, because it was illegal, you know, so it had, so it was like, oh no, we're known this for that anymore. We're just meditate BA Ram, you know, or money pay whom, and that was necessary and good for a long period of time. But now it may be that it's coming, you know, since Michael Parlin wrote his wonderful book, it's kind of coming out of the closet and it's coming into a sensible use now, you know, positive. I, I believe even the army generals, they really wanted to be usable therapeutically in the VA system for their PTSD people because it's, by far the best thing for that, for example.
Speaker 2 00:10:12 And since everybody who grows up in the nuclear industrial family in the late, late era of polluting industrialization, uh, which we are having to stop now and transform into something cleaner, uh, then, um, you know, this is becomes necess. Everybody has some kind of PTSD about, but then in my long, um, what shall I call it ordeal of, um, getting into getting a PhD, you know, having a livelihood as a pinless ex monk with an ex model who hadn't exactly invested all of her, which she was a supermodel, but she supported all artists and friends and very generous openhearted. So, and, and even gave money to film Brook. So we were both bit broke and then we had, I had to make a living. And so then I had to go back into the university system and this and that taught for 50 years, got a PhD and taught for 50 years.
Speaker 2 00:11:06 And during that time, I didn't really have time to do it. A B didn't really have any, so, you know, wasn't really able to do that, but luckily had a, had some meditative practice that kept me still open let's say and kept me doing like that. And I haven't really had to now I'm retired and, you know, I'm very open to doing it if, if there was a burning man, I wouldn't mind. In fact, I don't think I could go there if I wouldn't be a little bit, a little bit lubricated in my brain, but, um, you know, it's too dusty for me, I believe too hot and dusty, but, um, so I, I hope to use it again in some way, but in other, although I don't officially do it and, uh, I'm kind of cool about it, but I'm, I'm gonna write an autobi myself.
Speaker 2 00:11:54 I'm, I'm sort of have one that I just, I will pull together in the next year or two. I, I better, I might CRO, you know, in ti bed way actually ti bed's count a year ahead. So I'm actually 80 in Tibet way. You know, I never, in my life touched an even an ounce of any opiate and accept painkiller in the dentist office. And I, I, somebody once gave me a sniff of cocaine and I thought I was back in the dentist office. It did not give me a buzz at all. And, um, so those stimulants either uppers or downers, you know, are really very, they are intoxicating, you know, whereas psychedelics are far from intoxicating because what they do is they open you into a direct non-conceptual contact with reality. And, uh, which is how, what starts with hallucinations on as the book of the dead properly to anciently describes.
Speaker 2 00:12:46 And, uh, they are deep learning. They are learning, uh, you know, in the genetics as Houston Smith called them. And they help you get a deeper grip on you're inner working and your, and the world around you and, um, cultures that are more peaceful and people are more cheerful. They use them for vision quests, um, for people and, um, are, are, are authoritarian, Western European soci, uh, Euro American societies have never really easily explored this level. Just like we had very few my mistakes. You know, we often killed our mystics actually, you know, the Muslim, the Abrahamic religious groups, often persecuted those who had some sort of direct experience of the divine and of nature and so on. And so that kind of thing was suppressed in our culture until recently. And, and that's made us more uneasy and we conquered everybody else cuz we were more unhappy looking for some something by conquering somebody which never does really make you happy.
Speaker 2 00:13:49 So I mean, you get something physical out of it, but you don't really, you get more uptight yourself. So, uh, you know, the masters gets uptight. I have to have the slave, you know, so, um, so that's the thing it's uh, uh, I don't consider it's it's they care they can't be addictive because they reveal to someone very powerfully, more reality about themselves and about the world and some aspect of that can be scary, et cetera. And people only, the only the nicest people like to have themselves reveal to themselves, you know, so it's a very powerful thing and that you should be used therapeutically and educationally, uh, in the same sane, nonviolent happy non polluting non-destructive society. And hopefully we have to get to a society like that on this whole planet. We, the colonialists. And though they, the formally colonialized we have to get there and we have to do it.
Speaker 2 00:14:45 PDQ, we're all pretty much fried, you know, um, the reason I'm optimistic, which, um, is that, um, I think I have finally come to understand a little more about what the role of the Buddha is in the world and, uh, the sort of power of the Buddha, you know, and, um, this is revealed in the VI acuity Sutra, which is what I was so lucky. Someone commissioned me to retranslate it or translate it. Actually, there were there's, there were existing, some Indian translate, some translations from the Chinese, but, uh, there and there was, but there was no translation from Tibetan. And at the time they did it, the Sanskrit was not available. It has become available since then and has, uh, a version of the Sri. And um, in that Sutra, it shows that this world is not a Kali yoga because of the Shaki moon's visit to it.
Speaker 2 00:15:44 And he underneath the surface of it and the surface, it looks like a Kali yoga getting worse and worse, but on the deeper level, it is being, the beings are being ripened to come to that Shangrila kind of Shala kind of future. And, um, this is then elaborated very much in the KA chakra Tundra, you know, and that's where it's really more deeply elaborated. But, um, so that gives me real hope. And then on a visceral level on a sort of, let's say historical level on a vis in spite of all the horrible Holocaust and wars and genocides and crap that's going on. Even Tibet still under kind of genocide, for example, which I'm Tibet house and everything. We were working to try to preserve the culture and to see to it that Tibet can be reborn, uh, at some stage, you know? And, um, so at a visceral level, the, maybe I should tell you one experience I had, which was actually not psychedelic in.
Speaker 2 00:16:40 Um, there, there was no substance involved because I was in India in 1971. I didn't have anything, you know, and I don't consider part to be bad to me. It was never like, it was just relaxing and hash or pot, you know, then I didn't have anything with me at the time, but, um, it was right. Um, before Kissinger went to China, 1971, a and people, Nixon had locked up a bunch of people in Washington, DC in the Redskin, um, stadium, the protesters of the Vietnam war. Yeah. I was there, Alan Ginsburg came to India, Ronnie Lang and these people, it was very apocalyptic time. And I had just been initiated into something called Riva mandala, which is a fierce form of this Ablo D Barra, the thousand arm thousand eye 11 headed, um, incarnation of the compassion of all the light beings. And, um, uh, I had this dream on the night of that initiation, which was such a weird dream.
Speaker 2 00:17:43 Really. It's really cool though, where I was flying in the sky with Riva, I was like on his back and which was, I don't know, I, he was transparent in a way cuz I was seeing the world through him and um, BNA was about to nuke China and Nixon was abetting him to do so. And, and um, he actually pressed a bunch of buttons to nuke Mau. He hated Mau. They were fucking a war between China and Russia on the north of China. This time, the summer of 71 and Riva was not gonna have it. I noticed. And he kept pressing the button and Riva has this flame supernova, flame hair, you know, like a more powerful than nuclear fishing or hydrogen bomb, but like hydrogen fusion, hair and Riva. And I could feel it because I was on his back and he, I was baffled, I, you know why I was there.
Speaker 2 00:18:48 It was a dream, you know, really was a dream. And he took his hair and he jammed it down into all the electric circuitry of the nuclear weapon machinery from the Kremlin to the silos or whatever it was. And this hair went into all of it. And then I was somehow able to understand Russian and Kim, Larry was in Switzerland, by the way, at the time and his presence, there was really part of the dream. I don't know why he was somehow moderating or mono. I don't know what he was doing. The connection, the red phone connection between Nixon and BAFF and he was involved in stopping something about that. I don't know what it was. I know he was running away from Eldridge CLE, I think actually was very geria. Yeah, it right from Alger. And he just went whack like this with his hair and the, and then the brushes were saying, well, sorry sir.
Speaker 2 00:19:42 But you know, there's nothing wrong with anything, but we're not getting the signal. You know, we're turning the key, we get the signal from you and you know, whatever football the Russians had, but it's not happening. And the president was not happening. Then I remember seeing president kind of going like this and it looked like he was masturbating actually <laugh> and then suddenly, then this went on for some time, but they couldn't understand. Then he was call, was going to Nixon and with the CIA interfering and then no and all this kind thing. And um, it just won't fly, you know, the missiles. And um, and then, um, and then I remember during the, in the dream, my old Mongolian teacher who said to me once during some, one of those kind of conversations, people get into where it's all going down the dream and maybe we'll have nuclear war.
Speaker 2 00:20:31 Now I, you know, much, a few years earlier and he made this thing like no way, well I'll guarantee we'll never have that. And he would occasionally make statements like that that were like prophetic, you know? And you never forgot that, you know, and I somehow remember that in the dream. And um, then at one point, both Nixon and bra have looked up and I don't know what they, and they looked at me rather at Riva and I don't know what they saw. Maybe they saw some sort of Arcangel in their unconscious. I have no idea, but they totally looked subdued and they totally dropped it. And they decided to really give it up. And then it was a very wonderful feeling. You know, it was really great seeing sort of mind and love and this fierce compassion block, electronic signals that would've killed millions of people.
Speaker 2 00:21:18 You know, there's one thing that then to the very end, I sort of looked sideways from where I was in the Himalayas, you know, in, in, uh, in a place called Al Mara, no Dalhousie. I was in Dalhousie and this sort of Dal Hamma was meditating over in the corner looking, I don't know. He, he didn't know. I mean, he wasn't involved in it, but he was sitting there. I didn't receive this ation from him, from someone else and from his on his teacher. And then from, to my amazement, I saw the face of Joanne live and Joanne live was also singing. I agree. And the dilemma and he was laughing <laugh> and he was saying, ha ha ha. You see why, why you even try to deal with us? You can't even hurt your enemies. Ha ha ha.
Speaker 2 00:22:08 It was just a dream, but it was a vivid dream. It was like a trip, you know, but it wasn't a trip. I actually, it was no, no benevolent chemicals were involved except from my own body, you know? But did you, it was totally magic. It was magic. So you feel there was, uh, you know, if there is a narrative, okay. From SHA moon's time to now where all these male chauvinist, patriarchal, violent cultures, which have been having wars on and off tribal and everything for about 5,000 years without maybe, maybe 10,000, if you listen to Maria, Jim butas maybe 10,000 years and the last eight, 10,000 years. And we now have reached this point where war and violence just doesn't cut it. And the, the, the, the, the domineering, nasty husbands, you know, the ones who just have the 10th trophy wife and all this kind of thing, um, you know, with their money and their power and everything, they can't control the force of love and they are too miserable and they're just lashing around and they wanna have another world war.
Speaker 2 00:23:17 This was a usual pattern. We'd be having another one by now, already. So all those dictators would be able to confuse their people even more about some other enemy because they only rule by fear, which we're seeing just now in this day, in the evening that they've try to attempt to promote fear, to keep in power, you know, and they're losing it. And they are just ridiculous. You know, it's like, it is a, it's an unreal reality show, not a reality show. And we are coming to the brink of a time when we are gonna make it work. We're gonna cool a planet. We're gonna not have a war. We're gonna have a real democracies everywhere. The authoritarian weirdo creeps are showing their irrelevance and, um, it's gonna happen, but it is, you know, and, and one of the, one of the big factors is that the, the, the Euro American very warlike, almost like Titanic type of cultures that are based on violence and patriarchal.
Speaker 2 00:24:18 Uh, they have reached a point of self, you know, like self implosion, where their own skill at violence is rebounded back against themselves and they can't use it anymore. So they have to now come to gentleness and they have to come to self-understanding and they have to surrender to nature. You could say, and realize that their interconnectedness to nature, you know, the scientists reached it in 1926 at the Copenhagen time when they realized they couldn't control the subatomic particles, or, and there was energies there that they couldn't even cope with. And even today, they still are trying to run away from that, but they have stuck about dark energy as 97% of it holding their rickety model together. It's not good as him, but in the heart of ever being there is this, what, what we call what you could call a bud in nature, or you could call it a soul, a soul of love and compassion and wisdom, which is the direct thing that experiences the world.
Speaker 2 00:25:21 And even the most evil person has that thing. And what makes them evil is that it's inaccessible to them. They get wrapped around and in these coils of, of, of, of frustration and, and, and misery, and therefore they won inflict that, and, and they're desperately grabbing at others in a, in a violent way, which makes it worse instead of better. And, um, but they all have in their own heart, this other thing, and, you know, the cure for some of them who are really bad is death. When they go through death, like in the near death experience, they go straight into the white tunnel, you know, and then they finally get to relax and then they get born somewhere. And then unfortunately we get born in a bad place. The thing is though that, uh, we are getting there, there has been some improvement, you know, like, uh, like my wife, for example, even all I've been through, she has still not accepted me as her disciple.
Speaker 2 00:26:20 I'm still a novitiate. And, but she says, I have shown some improvement from my male sist wasp upbringing, you know, like half of D Lamas and Mongolians and everything, but I'm still not fully accepted because I still interrupt. You know, I think I'm finishing her thought, but actually I'm interrupting it and not getting the full benefit of it still. I still have the habit, so it is not easy, you know? And, and, um, but we're getting there and in a way, I think, you know, I, I am haunted by Edgar Casey at the moment. Totally. I'm so sorry, but you know, what did you know what he said? He lived in Virginia Beach, you know? Yeah. And he said that when someday there's gonna be a black man, who's gonna be the president of the United States. And that will be the end of the United States. He said, and he wasn't a racist himself at all.
Speaker 2 00:27:09 He was, he was, he was being, you know, realistic in what he thought terms of the ways people were around him. And, uh, and so we are seeing, I think in a way it is that we're at the end of it, you know, it's, we have a, we are led by someone who is aligned with every enemy of the United States at the United States, the American revolution that we've ever had, starting with the British colonialist east India company, the, the civil war, the, the, the rebels, you know, the Nazis, the Russians he's, every enemy we ever had. He is, uh, an agent of them. And he's ruling us showing how self-destructive we BEC we became, I mean, as, as a collective. And so I think it's end, so we have to start a new, and I think we will, you know, but I do worry. So don't, it's not that I'm that, but the reason I mentioned the dream is I know it's completely crazy and it's just a dream and it looks like we are at the end and, you know, the there's nothing gonna happen.
Speaker 2 00:28:13 You know, that Paris accord, I mean, you know, forget about it, but I did go minute and I retired last summer. I went to, uh, Al Gore's climate reality project training in Minneapolis. And, um, I got that training and then I've been looking into it and I follow all of these things and we have absolutely, we can easily defeat the oil in fossil fuel industry and the militarists and everything, and have a decent planet. And it's in their interest to actually do it. And they are actually, they don't even wanna go and drill in the Arctic, you know, they don't want to have Trump's idiot. Uh, people, uh, undoing the EPA and everything. They don't even want it. Now they realize their days are number. You know, that was not really a debate. You understand? It was promoted. Not even by not much by Stephen, it was promoted as, as if it was a big debate.
Speaker 2 00:29:07 But the debate began when Steven said, well, he didn't really think there wasn't a future life. He just didn't know. Right. So that was like conceding the debate ahead of time. You know, in other words, they tried to put it like he's against the former future life, which is sort of, uh, an American immature Zen view. And I think the mature more mature Zen view, they've gotten past that quite a bit, not everyone, but quite a few of them. And, um, and I'm rep I was rep I am representing the view that the former future life and the continuity of life and that we've all lived many, many lifetimes, beginning, endlessly, and we will continue living them endlessly. And the, the default position is that that's the common sense position, the completely obstru and insane position is that that any energy continuum could ever be nothing.
Speaker 2 00:30:00 That's who people, if they're gonna say that they have to prove that because nobody's ever witnessed it. And they've never experienced that nobody ever experienced nothing. And they never will actually, by the meaning of the word, you know, cuz there's no such thing as the point to think that, well, nothing disappears because nothing isn't there. Exactly. But no something disappears. In other words, that's the conservation of energy. Then they go, oh yeah, but we have entropy. Well, so that could take a while entropy, but it's still, the energy is still there. So the point is every single materialist who argues that they're gonna be nothing when they die. Which means that essentially there are nothing right now they have no soul. And they did that to escape from the inquisition and I applaud them for doing so, but still anybody who argues that is going on a blind faith, in something that nobody has experienced because there's no experience of nothing.
Speaker 2 00:30:55 It's ridiculous to say. There could be, you see? And they, they have that when they talk of energy. And so the point is that that is the way the relative universe obviously works. But if anybody wants to make it be some other way, then they should have to prove that. So that's, that came to me only, I would say 10 years ago. I finally cuz I had so many arguments with different natural science types. And so social scientists who trying to be natural scientists and then humanities, philosophers who wanna be hand maidens of natural scientists. Cause they're the high priests of the secularist, um, you know, troops division. So would I never denies the existence of the relational soul of the, and if you define it as the super subtle, something like a DNA molecule, but this is a nonmaterial pattern that is that transmits, that constantly changes and go and you can be a dinosaur, an animal and a crocodile right after you die, if you insist on it.
Speaker 2 00:31:56 And, and in other words, you will not remember being filled. And I won't remember being Bob. We would be whatever we are and we can go from other planets. So there's a continuum of super subtle energy. I call it like a spiritual or a mental DNA. And that's the obvious thing that's what's in the Buddhist science. That's what the Buddhist science Argus, although the Buddhist science does say this, it says that reality, whatever it is, when you say absolute, you mean really, you know, actual the real reality, not the Milus one. So which is this one, but the real, the actual one in reality, no theory can ever capture what's going on. So in a way, even the karma, you know, which means simply causation of relativity, even karma is any particular description of it is more or less valid within a particular context, but it's never an absolute dogma.
Speaker 2 00:32:54 If you follow me that, that, you know, it's, Karma's a relational law, but not an absolute law. So there's no absolute dogma. If anybody can discover nothing, if they can, the American physics physicist association, if they can come up with a full proof proof that they, that nothing exists, they're welcome to it. And we would really go for that. You know, it's like Carl Sagan once asked the dollar, we have it on video tape. He said, you heard us, what would you do if we made a foolproof experiment with every angle covered? And we proved empirically beyond a shadow of a doubt that there was no reincarnation, what would you do that I'm thoughtful for a moment. And he said, well, I stopped believing in it. He said, and Sagan SA was like, huh? How, what? Yeah. I said, if, if evidence is there, I'll stop believing and said, well, well that's been wait.
Speaker 2 00:33:51 And then there was a couple of beats and then speaks to Sagan. He says, how we gonna go about setting up to experiment? <laugh> of course figure, you know, so it took me 15 years of, of being aware of that little exchange to realize that the main argument is we don't have to prove reincarnation or rebirth, whatever you wanna call it. You get anybody who wants to say that anything can be, nothing has to prove that because in fact, that's impossible to prove because you will never experience that there is even a meditative experience. That seems like nothing that the Budha even said you could achieve was one of the things, one of his teachers, when he was right out of the gate before he went for his six years of, of a citizenism, one of them was he reached a kind of what they thought it was nothing, the state.
Speaker 2 00:34:41 And he realized Budha immediately realized that's not a nothing. That's a state projecting my idea of nothing into a state, but it's not nothing cuz I got in it and I'm getting out of it. And I, and I came back out of it. So it's therefore not nothing. So, so anyway, that's that, but my point there is therefore, uh, we all are dying and living and we have been for thousands of years and we will continue to be. And eventually we decided too boring to live. So selfishly and harmfully and violently and we wise up and we'll let let the women take the lead and we'll be happy and we will fix the planet. You see? And that's the thing, you know, KA, I know you like the dil, you know, voidness the womb of compassion. It's Nagar Jr's favorite statement and its huge statement all over all the tantras, especially Karl chakra.
Speaker 2 00:35:41 And it means that when you reach emptiness by realization, by analytically using critical reason, you analytically demolish all conceptual structures, which one acid trip won't enable you to, but it will open the door to the process for sure. And you use critical reason. However, you need to use your concepts to do it. You can't just do it by temporarily falling out of your concepts because the concepts will reassert themselves. The patterns are so deeply ingrained it. They reach the instinctual level, but when you do that and then you come out until like an open space and there's a trap there because some people do that and they think, oh, that's emptiness and I'll go back there later. And they, they, they create imagine an absolute that's outside of relativity. But when you do it really completely, the momentum of the analysis of the penetration of the critical WPR now, you know, wisdom makes you realize, well, this E this space is also what is it?
Speaker 2 00:36:42 And the disappeared state disappears and the nothing, the state, the emptiness and the emptiness state, which was slightly different. They both disappear. And then the relativity is there because relativity is the emptiness. You see the emptiness is the relativity. Doesn't underlie it or be outside of it or something. You know, it is all of these things, you know, and that's, what's as empty as equals relativity. I'm saying, you know, and it's a more thorough relativity than Einstein's because Einstein made a speed of light, an absolute, because that's kind of a barrier for matter because when it goes faster than, but a particle goes at that speed, it mass, its mass becomes infinite and therefore it's meaningless to be a particle because it, or is everywhere, something like that. So he kind of hit the clear light there, but he thought that was a boundary of a material universe cuz he was, he was forced to consider the universe was material. Only mine can go BES P of light to instantaneous, transcendence of distance. And time is not issued for mine. Exactly. But the matter cannot, you know, and uh, we,
Speaker 4 00:37:48 We are, we
Speaker 2 00:37:49 Are, he was up to it, but he was, he Reely ized, the boundary of the relativity that he found through his thought through his meditations, which were thought experiments really is how he found it. But he, he absolutely ized the kind of boundary state. And there is a danger for those great yogis and yo is who reach them things that they will reach a boundary state like that. And then they'll absolutely Ize that and think there's Nirvanas here then when they come out of it and they they'll run around for a few years and think they'll go back there and that's what we call dualistic Buddhism or TETA Buddhism, you know, where they project Nirvana as out off planet, if you will.
Speaker 4 00:38:25 Well, you you've never, you've never taken rationality and exploration off the table. It's been the principle aspect of
Speaker 2 00:38:32 The, well, there's not a no rationality inspiration, inspiration takes you right to the mirror surface. It takes you to the mirror surface, but it doesn't control what's in the mirror. Correct. But you don't have to lead from some other place to hit the mirror surface the rationality that's, you know, the first title, the first title of that book that, that you have there, the original title of it was called speech of gold. Yep. Reason and enlightenment in the, something in the, in the philosophy of central philosophy of to bed, something like that. And um, so it, you know, it's that reason the critical, you know, like in the coan or the, you know, in the Rin eye and in the, and in the Soto, the coan of being, sitting on a pillow, when you feel like shit, and you're told you're a Buddha, which is a super coan, you know, and, and that co brings you critical reason into conflict showing the, the, the contradictions in your sexualities and pushing them against each other until there's like an explosion.
Speaker 2 00:39:37 And that's what the stor is. But without using the reason to generate that super doubt, like a mountain of doubt on top of your head, you're not gonna, you're not gonna break to ator, just throwing away your thinking. So that that's a wrong way to teach. Then. In other words, just to stop thinking, you know, if you just stop thinking, you can get a buzz because you, this takes a lot of energy to have your brain think, but that, but your confusions come back when you, when you stop doing it, you know, but, but when you realize emptiness, you are free and you can't go back.
Speaker 3 00:40:15 This episode of the Bob Thurman podcast was originally streamed online live September, 2020 as a part of the meditation and psychedelics interview series to watch the full video version, please visit the YouTube link in the podcast description. The Bob podcast is produced under a creative commons, no derivatives license. Please be sure to share like and repost on your favorite social media platforms. Interstitial music for the BA Thurman pod is generously supplied by tensing choke to learn more about the work and music of tensing, Cho gal, please visit his website. This podcast is brought to you in part with the generous support of the Ette house, us men, membership, community, and listeners like you to learn how to support this podcast by becoming a member, please visit our
[email protected], menlo.org, and Bob Thurman do com. This is, is Justin Stone Diaz. And I'd like to thank you for tuning in Tasha and hope to see you soon online or in person.
