[00:00:14] Speaker A: Welcome to my Bob Thurman podcast.
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[00:00:48] Speaker B: This is episode 340.
[00:01:19] Speaker A: Greetings everyone. How are you all today in this new year? As a little bit worrisome as it is politically, it's glorious as far as we're all here on the miracle of Mother Earth. But I'm so delighted today to be welcoming the great healer and the author of this wonderful book, When Parts Speak.
I have a long Tamela Floyd LCSW and practical guide to healing with internal family systems therapy and ancestor wisdom. And really I think it's wonderful. I've been in reading it, I've been encountering internal family systems therapy and I'm a little bit lost among my parts and among my ancestors and so forth, but I really like it. And so here is Kamala Floyd. Welcome. She's a wonderful person and a great healer. And how are you, Tamala? How are you doing?
[00:02:20] Speaker C: I am doing wonderful, Bob. Thank you for that introduction.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: That's great. Well, I didn't elaborate more about the fact that you are a planetary citizen and you have adopted all beings as your kin, which is a tradition of a Buddhist mendicant where they drop out from ordinary, you know, sort of productive, tax paying, whatever roles, and they are there to develop the human heart.
[00:02:52] Speaker C: I love the way you shared that with me because that's what this experience of traveling feels like to me. Like I feel like I'm connected to every place and person I encounter in this, this time of my life.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: You even have a headdress like a yellow headdress. Yes. The Tibetan llamas have a helmet like that and they have a thing that looks sort of like a Greek soldier's uniform, but it isn't. And it has like a thing like this, you know, like a mohawk with yellow, yellow, a thousand yellow threads which symbolize the thousand Buddhas of the. This good, wonderful planet that we live on.
They had four of them and there's another 995 coming in case people are worried that the, the oiligarchs are going to really successfully destroy human life on Earth. They're going to fail, luckily.
[00:03:46] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:03:47] Speaker A: You have a beautiful yellow headdress. I think it's marvelous.
[00:03:51] Speaker C: Thank you. That's my favorite color.
[00:03:54] Speaker A: Good for you.
[00:03:55] Speaker C: It is, yes.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: Color of wisdom and the color of joy and energy.
[00:04:02] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:04:04] Speaker A: Female shakti. Power, actually, and wealth and prosperity, like the Indian goddess Lakshmi. You know, it's a yellow golden color. You know, that's what my theories tell us. What is it? How do you listen when parts speak? Why don't we start with that? Yeah. Production.
[00:04:24] Speaker C: Absolutely. How we listen when parts speak is one. I just want to share that we all possess a wise, intuitive healing resource, which in ifs, we refer to it as the self, and it is the self coming into relationship with parts of ourselves that need healing is how we listen. So we're listening from that. The compassionate listener and healer within.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: Wonderful. So then, are you saying that it fits with a theory of human nature, that the deepest self is good? It's original love, it's original compassion, not original sin and original something.
[00:05:09] Speaker C: Right. Yeah.
[00:05:12] Speaker A: You're basing your thing on what, Your own discovery as a scientist and a psychologist, that the human nature is basically this good self.
[00:05:22] Speaker C: Absolutely. We say that when we are not blended with our parts. So say I have a part that feels insecure, a part that needs to be perfect, or a part that's critical. When those parts step back, what we're left is. Is that intuitive self that you're describing. It's. It's. We're not. Our parts are not activated, which means now I can come into relationship with that part that gets critical of me and others and see what that part wants to communicate with me.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: I see. So if we, for example, had the disorder, personality disorder, of having a part that wanted us to be dictator of the universe, that might be a part, we would want to find out what's wrong with.
[00:06:07] Speaker C: We'd want to. Yes. We want to come into relationship with that part. Absolutely. There's a reason why. And. And the other thing is those parts are protecting something vulnerable.
[00:06:18] Speaker A: You know, how would that. How would that work? How. How would that have come to be in a particular person?
[00:06:25] Speaker C: Well, often it. They. Our parts come to be through neglect, not getting the attention that we needed as children. Parents who are not attuned to our needs make us feel bad for even having the needs. And then, of course, on the far end, abuse. You know, physical, sexual, mental, emotional abuses.
[00:06:49] Speaker A: I see. So. So, so. So the sort of desperate desire to be the dictator of everybody else has to do with a deep fear of them, perhaps, that they might.
[00:07:01] Speaker C: It could.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: And that. And that part that is trying to protect the delicate infant from this kind of damage and injury and hurt.
[00:07:13] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:07:14] Speaker A: Over. To preemptively recreate the situation in a way.
[00:07:19] Speaker C: Yeah. And, and the thing too, about our parts that are protecting us, the more extreme. Bob. Our parts protect us, the more extreme they act. That is an indicator of how deep our emotional wounds are. I have to act very extreme when I've been hurt very deeply.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: Yes, that's right. I get to see that. And actually I do see that in a prominent.
We're all thinking about nowadays in the world, actually.
[00:07:49] Speaker C: Right.
[00:07:50] Speaker A: And I read a book about the youth of that person and it was very harsh, I think, you know, from the psychiatrist niece that that person has.
[00:08:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: So, so, so interesting. Now when I was reading the thing and. And your book and some of the wonderful case histories you have.
[00:08:11] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:08:12] Speaker A: And then you, you, you were. You were showing for anybody, as example, anecdotally, very telling and very moving anecdotes about how as a. As a therapist or B, you did a couple. As if you were doing your own part, you sort of get with the part and you encounter it, I guess, in an inner meditation. Is that right?
[00:08:37] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:08:39] Speaker A: That's a great yes to back up. And you first need to introduce the complete lay person. As I was before I started reading your book.
[00:08:47] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: Who listen to this. What is the ifs Internal Family System Therapy. What is that? Where does it come from?
[00:08:55] Speaker C: What is it? Yes. So internal Family Systems Therapy was created by Richard Schwartz and Rich. Dr. Schwartz looked at the human being as not one whole, but multiples, and that us being multiples is the norm, not the exception, as we used to think. Right. So. And when we talk about multiples, it's subpersonality, and we call them parts in ifs. Our sub personalities have complete personalities like you and I have. They feel, they see, they hurt. They have opinions and perspectives on life. They have behaviors. So I like to think of our parts like when I was using the example of that critical part as a small human within that has a way of behaving within my system when things are happening that activate that criticism.
[00:09:50] Speaker A: I see, I see. So. So the parts have internal. So then the. The internal family system is the organization of those parts into what one feels is a kind of unitary personality.
[00:10:05] Speaker C: Yes, yes. And we call it the family because we have multiple parts. It's not just one, but. Yes, absolutely. And like a family. But I really love. We all have families. Right. And we have members in our families that we're very close to, folks in the families we align with, but also people we're polarized with. It's the same thing internally.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: Yes, I get it. Exactly. So, so. And people normally might Resist that description of their own sense of identity. Except when, however they are behaving and however their situation is in life, they're having a problem, they're depressed, or they're sick or they're neurotic or something. And then they would seek help from such as yourself.
If they came to you that way, then how would you start with them?
[00:10:57] Speaker C: Right. So the first thing I want to do is just listen to their story. I want to hear what brings you here. Right. So you're saying the person is depressed, but as I'm listening to their story, I'm hearing the different parts involved. You know, that, you know, I'm depressed because I recently lost a job. I'm also having problems with my spouse or partner who's upset because I'm no longer working and can't bring in money. And so that has us arguing all the time. And I know that I'm right and they're wrong. So I hear that there are parts to press. I hear that there are parts that are upset that the partner is pressuring them to get a job. And then that's got my. This client in a tug of war, polarized with their partner. So I'm. I begin these sessions listening for the parts and then confirming with the client as what I'm interpreting or hearing. Correct. Does this feel like their experience? And so I might say something like, I hear that there's a part of you that is depressed. And then at times there's a high frustration with your partner for the pressure of you to go back to work. Yes, yes, that's exactly what's. What's happening. Have there been other times in your life that you felt pressure similarly to what you're experiencing with your partner to see how this part kind of shows up in the person's life, maybe in other areas of their life they're experiencing that depression or frustration.
[00:12:28] Speaker A: Yes, that's great. That's great. So then they start revealing more things, and then they notice them. Then you point out to them what they are revealing themselves, actually. So in a way you cover themselves. Actually, yes.
[00:12:41] Speaker C: And I want to start speaking about parts like when a person comes in and says, I'm depressed.
[00:12:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:49] Speaker C: That means all of them, the hundred percent makeup of them, is depressed from their perspective. I want to help my clients appreciate that only one part of you is depressed. Right. And it's not all of you. You know, there are other things happening in the midst of being depressed, but we need to get into relationship with the parts that do feel depressed and hope and Despair because of the not be. Not working at this time.
[00:13:17] Speaker A: Yes, I get that. That's wonderful. It reminds the story of my friend Mark Epstein. I don't know if you've heard of him.
[00:13:24] Speaker C: Yes, yes.
[00:13:25] Speaker A: Sort of known as the. The meditation psychotherapist or the Buddhist psychotherapist. And he, when he and Richard Alpert, AKA had been a teacher of his when he was an undergraduate in college, and later he met him again when he was Ram Dass and in Maui and so on. And then when Ram Dass realized he had become a psychiatrist himself, so then Ram Dass asked him, said, well, you're a psychiatrist, are you? Yes. He says, this is a mark. And then Ram says, well, as a psychiatrist, when you see your clients, your patients, do you see them as already free this question? And then Mark said he had to think about it for a minute, and then he was able to say yes.
Well, I'm asking. What I want to ask you is in order to do that and for the patient to be able to have you do that, you must be seeing that intuitive and compassionate self in that patient somewhere in there, unbeknownst to the patient.
[00:14:32] Speaker C: Absolutely, absolutely. I hold that every single person who sits before me has that compassionate self inside that I want to help them identify and come into relationship with. Absolutely.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: And so that patient can do that with you because they feel that you do that, but they didn't even know that they feel that you do that.
[00:14:53] Speaker C: Right, right. And you know what they're experiencing? You're right on. You're absolutely right on, Bob. What they're experiencing is my self. Like when I sit down across from my client, I too have to be unblended from my parts. And maybe the part that wants to really help this person or the part that wants to be the perfect therapist, I have to unblend from those and show up in my self energy.
Yeah.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: That's wonderful. Wonderful. So this is so interesting to me because there are people who misunderstand. I believe the very important Buddhist idea of compassion, you know, say that compassion is not empathy. They get oldly about that and they say, don't empathize. If you empathize too much, then you'll get dragged into other people's dramas, you know, and you'll get lost in them.
[00:15:49] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: Something different. So don't empathize. Whereas what I believe from my studies of 63 years, which are still uncompleted, of course.
[00:15:59] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:16:00] Speaker A: But I believe that what it is, is you totally empathize at the same time as you have something you find by total empathy, the Buddha nature in the person or the self, or what you're calling the intuitive, compassionate part. Even in suffering, they also have a compassion.
[00:16:19] Speaker C: Yes, yes. And with the.
[00:16:22] Speaker A: And it's not. No empathy in some way. Think it's empathy. Plus absolutely intuitive thing. Because you.
[00:16:31] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: Through it a little bit.
[00:16:33] Speaker C: Yes. And the thing about the. What I add, and maybe that's in what you just said, Bob, in being compassionate, I have a desire to do something, to see some type of movement, some type of healing happen for the person. So not just, you know, maybe feeling sorry for them or. Which is more like pity. But I really want to hear it. Right. I want to see some type of healing. So that's what self is offering. But here's the thing. Self is detached from the outcome. So I offer it. But the person can accept or not accept.
[00:17:14] Speaker A: Yes, that's right. So they. That's really critical tuition. Because then they don't feel it's intrusive. They feel.
[00:17:23] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:17:24] Speaker A: Letting it play out from within themselves.
[00:17:26] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: What is happening within themselves and you're not.
[00:17:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:32] Speaker A: Really. So then they feel more free with you, actually, and more.
[00:17:36] Speaker C: Yes, they do. Yes. Yes, I do.
[00:17:38] Speaker A: I feel.
[00:17:39] Speaker C: Yeah.
Thank you.
Thank you.
[00:17:44] Speaker A: I love this. So.
[00:17:46] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:46] Speaker A: And the title, When Listening, When Parts Speak, is a very brave title. It launches right into the middle of it.
[00:17:53] Speaker C: Right into it. Yeah. Because this is the thing we often. And this was my experience personally. And I, as you say, I use many anecdotes from my life of my personal experience with my parts, but I didn't want to listen. Like I was the part when I was anxious, anxiety was all over me, and I. You cannot come into relationship with the parts or anything unless there's two of you. Right. So if I'm 100% blended and anxious, there's no one to be in relationship with that anxiety.
[00:18:24] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. Perfect. Amazing. I think that's wonderful. There's so much wisdom in that. And you do share, don't you? You. You do share where you first encountered some of your parts when you sort of started just learning this, right?
[00:18:41] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: Was Richard Schwartz your. Your therapist at that time?
[00:18:46] Speaker C: He was not my therapist, but I absolutely have had trainings under him, and he's been a mentor to me. And we also do trainings together.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: Yes, I see. So you encountered a therapist who was in the tradition.
[00:19:01] Speaker C: Oh, absolutely. Most definitely. Yes. Yes.
[00:19:05] Speaker A: You recite that. Which is really very revelatory. I think people, when I read That I felt very much at home about what you had yourself had gone through, you know?
[00:19:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:19:16] Speaker A: And I love also the thing, the anecdotal case story you have about the strong black woman complex, and maybe you can tell us more about that. I think that is really very profound.
[00:19:30] Speaker C: Yes, yes.
[00:19:32] Speaker A: My experience, but I think it's really important.
[00:19:37] Speaker C: It's very important. So one of the things before talking about that, I first want to say, when we look at burdens in ifs, we have personal burdens that happen because of our own experiences. Something happens in my upbringing, and now I have a personal burden around it. We have cultural burdens that come from the society and culture that we grow up in, and then legacy burdens, which are the intergenerational burdens handed down from our familial lines. The reason I want to bring all three of those up is because the strong black woman can be all three burdens. I can have the strong black woman archetype from my family lineage, my mother, my grandmother, and on and on back, all had to be strong, had to deny their emotions, had to work hard, had to support the family, had to depend on themselves. Right. So that's one way I can get it through my ancestry. But it also can be reinforced by the culture. Now, I grew up in the United States, in California, so some of the things in US Culture is patriarchy as a cultural burden, racism as a cultural burden. Those two alone, patriarchy and racism reinforce the strong black woman part. And then, personally, just in my own experience, there may be things that made me feel like I needed to be strong. I needed to deny my feelings. I needed to take care of other people. I need to deny my health because it was more important for me to take care of people than attend to my own health. These are all qualities of the strong black woman.
[00:21:18] Speaker A: Yes, yes. Right. And. And so you. You. You have that. You had that yourself. And then the. The person you were dealing with who wouldn't let herself rest. Can you tell us.
[00:21:29] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. She had to continue to push through, take care of others, take care of her mother, take care of her business, take. She had a family taking care of her family. She was also having health problems and totally wasn't paying attention to them, you know, and I would point them out, even in session. Things that her body. You need to attend to that. I don't have time. I have to, you know, do these other things.
[00:21:57] Speaker A: And many social work case clients. Right.
Therapist, technically, but a social worker is the kind of therapist, right?
[00:22:04] Speaker C: Yes. We are a clinical social Worker is a therapist. Yes.
[00:22:08] Speaker A: Right. So too many clients. Right?
[00:22:11] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:22:12] Speaker A: And that was exhausting her.
[00:22:14] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:22:15] Speaker A: And then which part was it making her do that, that you had her find the burden and then witness to it and then deburden, or was that.
[00:22:27] Speaker C: Absolutely. And that was learning about the strong black woman part. So she learned that this part was. Had been handed down to her from her maternal line. So we wanted to do what we call a legacy unburdening. Where we. And when I do legacy unburdening, I invite in a well and wise ancestor from whatever line we're unburdening, in this case maternal line, to come in to help with that unburdening process. Yeah. And what that does, Bob, is unburden.
[00:23:00] Speaker A: Sorry, go ahead.
[00:23:02] Speaker C: I was just going to say, and what that does inviting in that ancestor is it helps unburden all the women on that line that carry that same burden. So not just the woman, but the women on her maternal line all get unburdened.
[00:23:17] Speaker A: That's really far out. But my question is, is it inevitable there will be a wise ancestor to be found even in a long history of women and patriarchy for thousands of years where women are being overburdened? Definitely. Almost everywhere. Is it inevitable that one will find that in every tribe or something?
[00:23:40] Speaker C: So far, every unburdening I've done, there's been a wise ancestors step forward and help with the work. Yeah. My experience of our ancestors, Bob, is that they want us to heal. And again, just like the self, they're not going to hit us over the head and demand that we do it. But when we open the door and invite them in, they step in to. To support our healing. Yeah.
[00:24:07] Speaker A: So in a way, can you say that then if the rise the wise ancestor that you find operating from the compassionate intuitive. What you're calling the self.
[00:24:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: Deeper self, the deepest nature that, that that person can relieve all these other burdens because that person, like the therapist, sees that everybody has that potential self. Yeah, absolutely. Somewhere in their heart they see that that's what makes them wise. And is that right?
[00:24:44] Speaker C: So they resonate, makes them wise and they've released this burden themselves or whatever burdens they may have carried. So. Yes, so they. Exactly. They are in their highest self also.
[00:24:57] Speaker A: Yes. That's really interesting.
[00:24:59] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:25:00] Speaker A: Well, by the way, the word family, what is. Can you help me with something that I have? I won't explain the long reasoning, but what, what difference is there when we use family versus clan?
[00:25:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:25:14] Speaker A: Never mind KKK crap.
[00:25:16] Speaker C: Right.
[00:25:17] Speaker A: I mean, the Actual word clan. Where. Because when we use family in this kind of society, like we're in the market capitalism, and we're thinking always the nuclear family, just mom and dad.
[00:25:29] Speaker C: Right.
[00:25:30] Speaker A: The extended family.
How big does it have to get before we call it a clan, a kinship clan?
[00:25:36] Speaker C: Well, it all can still be family, you know, no matter how big it gets. And, you know, we're talking about nuclear family or your biological family. Also, when we're defining family, it's outside. It's adopted family. It's family, that surrogate family, chosen family. It's all of these. When we're talking about family, wait, maybe.
[00:25:58] Speaker A: It'S better to expand the meaning of family.
Because after all, when to make it this narrow thing, you have to say nuclear.
[00:26:07] Speaker C: Right.
[00:26:08] Speaker A: Rather than inject the word clan, which then gets a little. There's some other connotations. Yeah, that's a big step for me. And some things that I translate.
[00:26:18] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:26:21] Speaker A: In some spiritual things where man is only one civil family, it's three cells.
[00:26:27] Speaker C: Right.
[00:26:29] Speaker A: Sanskrit, two syllables.
[00:26:31] Speaker C: So.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: But family may be better. Thank you. That's just like side, little profit. I'm getting.
[00:26:36] Speaker C: Excellent, excellent translator.
[00:26:39] Speaker A: As a translator.
So then maybe I have to cross that Rubicon. Wonderful.
[00:26:44] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:26:45] Speaker A: So then, Then, then when was it. Okay, so then. To take us. So people learn these things. Bur you. You find the burden? No. What do you witness? You go to meet the. What is that first part? First part one is what?
[00:27:00] Speaker C: Yeah, so the very first part that we're doing is before we can work with that vulnerable part that needs the healing, the wounded one, we have to work with their protectors. So what we're doing is coming into relationship with the parts of ourselves that protect are wounded, vulnerable ones. Yes.
[00:27:21] Speaker A: And that's called the burdens revisited.
[00:27:25] Speaker C: No, that is.
That is when we're connecting with our protector parts, we're actually just building a relationship with them so that they can stop doing what? Let's use the example of the. The person who has kind of this dictatorial personality part. Right.
So. So that part is doing the behaviors that it's doing as a protector to keep that person from feeling the pain and shame that they carry in their woundedness. So the first part I want to come into relationship with is the one who protects. Because think about protectors or a guard. They're not going to let their guard down unless they have good reason to. So I will never get to the wounded one until I work with the guard, the protector first.
[00:28:16] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:28:16] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:28:17] Speaker A: So that's the first step. And yes. When you have parts 1, 2, 3, 4. You have IFS concept 1 and so forth.
[00:28:25] Speaker C: Right.
[00:28:26] Speaker A: So I'm just trying to. If. What did you call that part when you look for the.
[00:28:30] Speaker C: So when we're working with the protector, what we're trying to do with the protector is befriend them. Is. Is what we call it. That might be in chapter that. This is probably chapter two, Befriending the protector. The reason you want to befriend the protector, understanding why the protector is doing their job. So that you can give the protector a reason to allow you to work with or for them to come into relationship with that wounded one.
[00:29:01] Speaker A: I have this concept when I jump too many chapters ahead.
One protective nature apart.
[00:29:08] Speaker C: That's right. Yes. Yes. That's where we start with those protectors. Because we're never going to get to the wounded one unless the protectors trust us and trust the person.
[00:29:18] Speaker A: Okay. Right. Our parts are in it. Can I read a bit from the thing?
[00:29:23] Speaker C: Yes, go right ahead. Yes.
[00:29:24] Speaker A: Parts are in. This is from page 25 in Tamala's wonderful book. When we are born, our parts are in their natural state. In most cases they are not burdened because they are the top protectors. Right. They can full nature of who they are. Playful, curious, calm, free loving, to name a few. However, as children, when our needs for attention, affection, acceptance and nurture and school unmet are made fun of or denied our natural ways of becoming exiled. You have that wonderful expression of exile. We learn that it isn't safe to be fully who we are. We learn that parts of us are unlovable, not good enough, shameful, and shouldn't be hidden and should be hidden from the disapproving parent.
Protect us from feeling these strong feelings of worthlessness. They do this in one of two ways. They keep us from experiencing the strong feelings of controlling everything they can. There you go. That's the dictator. Right? And keeping us too busy, focused on other things or distracted to feel our unmet needs. Or when something grabbing people and things, you know, because we our needs are actually unmet. Or when something in our life triggers our feelings of not good enough or shame. Arts swoop in to douse the severity of these feelings with intense distractions to take the attention off the emotional pain. You put it so beautifully, Tamila. Really?
[00:30:49] Speaker C: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:30:53] Speaker A: Very, very real. So then. Okay, tell us next is concept 2. Ifs internal family system. Concept 2 go inside.
[00:31:03] Speaker C: Ah yes.
[00:31:05] Speaker A: Ward. Okay, so.
[00:31:07] Speaker C: And when you're going inside, I'm helping the client come from Their external world to what happens inside. To meet these family members that are here so often, I just have them close their eyes and ask them, what do you notice? Because the internal family shows up in all types of ways. Some people see their parts. Some people. I might. I might experience my part as heart palpitations. Right. Or I might get clammy and cold. My part might speak to me. They might say something.
So however it shows up, or an emotion. I might, I might. Sometimes clients start to get tearful.
[00:31:45] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:31:45] Speaker C: Those are all expressions of our parts.
[00:31:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:49] Speaker C: So I'm going to help them deepen that relationship. The tears are there. Just be with that part. See what that part wants you to know about it. Now, a key comment or phrase rather that we use to make sure that the person can connect with the part is how do you feel toward the tears? The upset stomach, the clamminess, whatever it is, the fear. How do you feel toward it? And if they tell me any of the words or qualities connected with self, I feel compassion for it. I'm curious about it. I want to know more about it. I actually feel really connected to these tears. Then I know the client has some self energy. And now we can start the work.
[00:32:38] Speaker A: I see, I see. That is so cool. You know? Yeah, it's very deep, actually.
[00:32:45] Speaker C: It is very deep.
[00:32:46] Speaker A: You know, in the Buddhist thing, there is this concept that is very badly misunderstood called selflessness. The most important thing for a person in that psychology is what they call realize your selflessness. And people only, especially in our modern, materialist, spiritually nihilistic culture, you don't really have a soul. You don't get reborn after death. Yeah, nothing really. You're just a robot with a biological robot. Right. And you know, science supposed pathetic material as science.
And so what it actually means is that you don't. Whatever identity you think you have is not fixed precisely. You're always recreating your identity. You're constructing it. And so that means you. We are all walking around unless we're already healed or enlightened, we're walking around stuck as rigidly protecting ourselves.
Really, I am. It should be a dictator or I should be this, that, or whatever it is. And with. And then when, when that. When that protector makes a command like you should be hating this or you should attack. You should. You should do something bad to this one. Then we feel we can't. We obey. We're a slave.
[00:34:15] Speaker C: Yeah, right.
[00:34:16] Speaker A: That rigid, rigid ego. So selflessness means discovering the mutability and the multiplicity thing and. And thereby Becoming responsible for how we create ourselves as we go.
[00:34:31] Speaker C: Absolutely, yes.
[00:34:33] Speaker A: And so the first step in the meditation on selflessness is a meditation where you witness yourself of feeling falsely accused. Especially maybe by a dear person, someone you care about who thinks you stole their ice cream or you betrayed them in this way or you did something which you. And in this case maybe you did do a little something sometimes, but not that that case. The case where you actually are innocent and feelings and then you're supposed to develop an ability to witness it as if you're like a method actor where you just re. Inhabit the memory wounded and innocent and you're there for sure that you are innocent. So your self guarding personality emerges in its full force. And then you feel well that's me question that. And then that's when you look to verify if that really is you. If you follow me.
[00:35:37] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:37] Speaker A: Like it's like the initial encounter with the therapist. But of course in this case it's people meditating and in a way the teacher is the therapist a little bit. So it's not, it's not a. It's not. It's in a way that psychology is based on someone who is getting along all right in the relative world.
It's also not that bad a society.
[00:35:58] Speaker C: Right.
[00:35:59] Speaker A: Dominating and confront, you know, conflictual society in ancient India. And so therefore it's really the psychology of going from sort of normal in an unenlighted way to a little bit super normal, loving and happy, really creative and blah blah, blah.
Very, very similar. At first I was sort of a little surprised and then I suddenly realized this is really bringing to regular people without any religious thing, insight into the multiplicity of the self to discuss about themselves. So you know, the big movement now, the mindfulness movement, you know, that's it. John Cabot Zinn.
[00:36:42] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:36:43] Speaker A: Which is divorced from sort of Hinduism or Buddhism or Taoism, any eastern thing as religion, although western people tend to be suspicious. It is somehow some eastern religion that is somehow is.
[00:36:57] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:36:57] Speaker A: Really more connects to the kind of psychology what you are talking about and that connection and reinforcing that and.
[00:37:06] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:37:06] Speaker A: From what you are discovering actually.
[00:37:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:10] Speaker A: Discovering it in a. In a very rough social setting.
[00:37:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:16] Speaker A: We think it's the greatest one that ever existed.
But actually it's very, very rough. And as.
[00:37:24] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: As people who we encounter, let's call it ethnocidally or even genocidal is perfectly well can tell us if we listen.
[00:37:34] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:35] Speaker A: Usa, you know.
[00:37:36] Speaker C: Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
[00:37:39] Speaker A: On the other end, among those kind of imperialist Kind of cultures which are wrecking the planet right now. The culture of all the oiligarchs, I call them oiligarch because they're all connected to that.
We sort of have a license to try to do something about it, right?
[00:37:59] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:38:00] Speaker A: At least unless they put a guy with a openly Nazi tattoo on his body in charge of our military, then we're really in trouble. It looks like those senators are wimping out.
[00:38:12] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:38:14] Speaker A: Costa Rica right now. So free from it.
[00:38:18] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. But it's interesting the overlap and one of the things I wanted to say is that ifs that is a psycho spiritual model. So it is, you know, just even looking at the self and the qualities of self is connecting to the spiritual side of us as human beings without bringing in the religion. The other point that you said is this is my book and this was its point is making this attainable to anyone, not just someone who goes to therapy. So I wanted to take these complex concepts and make them digestible and usable so that people can get some healing on their own.
[00:39:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it really works that way. I think it really does.
[00:39:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: I was going to ask you, do you sometimes introduce it with like a weekend retreat someplace or something is you're traveling now or do you do that? So yes, like a four day or a three day weekend, like a bit long weekend or midweek. And sometimes you have done it.
[00:39:25] Speaker C: I do. I hosted my first women's retreat here in Costa Rica in October. It was five days. I'm doing another one starting April 30, also here in Costa Rica.
[00:39:39] Speaker A: Which place?
[00:39:40] Speaker C: In this, this next one. The one that starts April 30th. It's actually a seven day. After I did the five day, I realized I had so much more to teach that the next one's going to be a seven day. It's in Santa Cruz, Costa Rica, on the Pacific side of Costa Rica. And if people are interested, they can contact me at my
[email protected] and there's an interesting form for retreats. This is going to be ongoing though. What I. I love that you said the fact that I travel, my goal is to, as I travel the world to host retreats in various areas. So I will in June host one for at Esalen, June 23rd to the 27th and in September I'm going to host one in Morocco.
[00:40:25] Speaker A: Morocco, wow.
[00:40:26] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:40:28] Speaker A: If you ever want to do one in New York.
[00:40:30] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:40:31] Speaker A: New York, in the catskill mountains. @menla.org you can find that or Menlo Okay.
You can look up the place.
[00:40:40] Speaker C: Beautiful.
[00:40:41] Speaker A: We're of course we're near Omega and also Kripalo. Those two.
[00:40:45] Speaker C: I was going to ask you that. Yeah.
[00:40:47] Speaker A: We're near them and then they're clutchy about someone who comes unfortunately especially Omega. But. But you know, in case you don't book with them. We would love to have you love that.
[00:40:59] Speaker C: Yes. Well, we'll talk.
Look it up and I will. I will.
[00:41:05] Speaker A: We'll be in touch with you for sure. Anyway. And sometimes I think Kripalo allows one to do. Live something there and then do something. We're a little smaller than they are so you can.
[00:41:15] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:41:16] Speaker A: If you have a huge list then you probably need to go to one of them.
[00:41:20] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:41:21] Speaker A: Or something or 100.
[00:41:22] Speaker C: Oh yeah. No, I like them smaller than that. Yeah. My comfort zone is 30.
[00:41:30] Speaker A: Easily have 100 or so with us, you know.
[00:41:32] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:41:33] Speaker A: But that would fill the house. But you know we have a lot of smaller ones. 20, 30 and yes, we would love that. I would love it. I think my wife would really want to attend your thing.
She's a natural therapist dealing with my parts for 58 years.
So she could probably use a little reinforcement.
[00:41:57] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:41:58] Speaker A: She would really love it. And yeah she's the one who really manages that place as a volunteer, you know.
[00:42:04] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:42:05] Speaker A: It's the Dalai Lama's place in America.
[00:42:08] Speaker C: Yeah. Thank you.
[00:42:11] Speaker A: In the city. You could do a book signing there anytime, you know.
[00:42:14] Speaker C: Right.
[00:42:14] Speaker A: Beth knows all about it, you know.
[00:42:16] Speaker C: Okay. Okay.
[00:42:18] Speaker A: Very much welcome it. I think it's just truly great, you know.
[00:42:21] Speaker C: Awesome.
[00:42:23] Speaker A: So. So anything. Anything else you would like we've done about now 40 minutes. Okay say to keep it under an hour.
[00:42:32] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:42:34] Speaker A: But as you said even seven days I. I could talk to you about. I am thinking about my parts and my grandfather and. And I have my family. I have a father's line is southern the guilt stricken unquestionable generals after the war a lot of. A lot of constitution of law abiding.
[00:42:57] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:42:58] Speaker A: Yeah they had. But they were on the wrong side in the. In the war that we seem to be losing again.
And that my mother's side were on the other side on the northern side.
[00:43:11] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:43:12] Speaker A: I have picked there. You know. But both of them ran away to New York where you kind of deracinated place. They both ran away families actually kind of and so I feel very deracinated type and then last thing. That's the last question just for.
[00:43:29] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:43:30] Speaker A: You know in the Buddhist thing there is this thing in addition to complicate matters okay. The ancestor. You know, I was thinking this morning when I was thinking about having our talk and I was thinking when I would go back to find a wise ancestor, either of those two lines, let's say, which are both pretty Anglo, I think probably, yeah, maybe some Scandinavian mixed in there and hi, maybe Scandinavian mixed in there. But what I actually would gravitate toward because of the Buddhist thing about multiple incarnations, you know, multiple lives, not just like the theistic side, Christian or Islamic, where you have one future life. Right. Determined by God.
You have life after death. In other words.
[00:44:21] Speaker C: Right.
[00:44:21] Speaker A: Like before, before this life. Right.
In Asia and worldwide and also in the Mediterranean in Jesus's time and in Pythagoras time and, and in Judaism they still have what they call metam psychosis or former lives.
So I, I somehow was thinking looking for a wise ancestors. I was taking through getting ready to talk to you, and then I found someone, but who wasn't in my lineage, ancestral lineage of my parents, but in my own previous incarnation line, welcoming me, who I believe I have, I know about, who I think was considered enlightened in his own time.
[00:45:06] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:45:07] Speaker A: And also you can be female and you can even be non human.
[00:45:10] Speaker C: Absolutely, absolutely, yes.
[00:45:13] Speaker A: You know, gender and also even species is not settled law been everything, in other words, because former lives are beginningless in that backwards, you know, so, so how if you had a client who was, you know, if you were in your travels, not probably Morocco, but if you have India and you might.
Then you would be people who might think they had previous lives.
[00:45:39] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:45:40] Speaker A: Addition, you'd have a fourth thing. It would be legacy, but it would be legacy from your own incarnation line.
Fourth, you'd have legacy, cultural legacy, and then you have ancestral legacy. And then you'd have a reincarnational legacy or you'd be going back in your own previous lifetimes.
Your method, the ifs. Could that, could that incorporate that, do you think?
[00:46:08] Speaker C: Absolutely. It can incorporate that. Absolutely. And another thing, all of what you just said, and I was thinking when you set the other ancestor from another line, time of your life, another lifetime, that also that ancestor still could be coming to help what's going on in your current lifetime. Like on the, on this. Right? So, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. This is another thing. When that well ancestor steps forward. One, unless the client gets some sense or the well, ancestor tells us. I'm not necessarily sure how far back on the line that ancestor comes. I mean, in some cases it's long past any memory or documentation of who this person is. So I. So Also, I would hold that. And the other thing, Bob, I trust whatever my clients say, come forth. You know, I'm gonna hold what. What. Whatever their experience is, because this is the way things. This is the way the ancestors speaking to them. This is the way the ancestors coming to. And it's more important that it makes sense to my client than it makes sense to me.
[00:47:24] Speaker A: I see. That's beautiful. That's beautiful.
[00:47:27] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:28] Speaker A: I had this experience once where I was at a holy mountain in the Himalayan.
And I. When I first saw that mountain, there's a place where the local Tibetans.
Oh. And they make little cairns. You know, they. They make little. Like towers of rocks.
[00:47:48] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:48] Speaker A: Loosely. They don't do it, but.
[00:47:50] Speaker C: Right.
[00:47:51] Speaker A: And so the Czech custom is you bow toward the mountain that if you can see it, it's the first. And see the snow peak of the mountain. So I was bowing there and just to follow the thing. And suddenly there were two people who I guess were in the top of my brain, but it seemed like they were over my head.
One was Mongolian. And I immediately knew that. I immediately knew they were me because they were talking about me as being them.
They were teasing each other or they were complaining or I don't know what they were doing because they hide from me usually. But they were saying, we know much more about this holy mountain than this guy Never could get out here because it's so wave. Out in western Tibet.
[00:48:45] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:48:46] Speaker A: In those days, they were bandits, and we had to go on a horse for a month to get there. And all the. And the one in Mongolia lived way far across the desert.
[00:48:54] Speaker C: Wow. Yeah.
[00:48:55] Speaker A: Got to the holy mountain and this turkey, we. But we finally get there as this turkey from New York in a Jeep.
And they were laughing, and then I practically sprained my neck, like, craning my neck.
[00:49:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:49:11] Speaker A: But I didn't have a therapist like you to help me actually really find them.
[00:49:17] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:49:19] Speaker A: They were just teasing me.
But they were so real.
[00:49:23] Speaker C: Yes, they are real. That's the other thing. I'm glad you said that. They are real.
[00:49:30] Speaker A: They were with me.
[00:49:32] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:49:33] Speaker A: But I didn't know it.
[00:49:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:49:36] Speaker A: I might be more. It might help me with some of my local protector.
[00:49:40] Speaker C: Yes, yes, yes.
[00:49:43] Speaker A: And the wounded. Whatever is. You know.
[00:49:46] Speaker C: Yeah. This reminds me of a quote. Unfortunately, I don't remember who said this quote, but what the quote says is, if you're visited by your ancestors in a dream, know that it's a real visitation. So however our ancestors show up, it's real that they're Reaching out to you to connect with you, offer information, share something or be in relationship with you.
[00:50:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And in a way, they were. I guess I should read the fact that they didn't sort of dialogue with me having.
[00:50:17] Speaker C: Right.
[00:50:19] Speaker A: Was their demonstration. Now you're teaching me their demonstration of having confidence in me that I could refine myself.
[00:50:26] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:50:28] Speaker A: You don't, you don't get into a misplaced pity sort of thing.
You get all anxious that they must discover this and that you're confident they will, and then you're curious, open to them. And then that's so wonderful. Leaving.
Forcing them subliminally and also observing the body, forcing them subliminally that they should have more confidence in themselves.
[00:50:54] Speaker C: Right. And also I look at you said earlier, going full circle about your friend who would say that he held that the client could do the work, had the healing, could move forward. And I kind of look at what I'm doing is I hold the container for the client to do the work that I help facilitate them do. It's like, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm here. The womb of just holding space for the work that this client is going to do. Yeah.
[00:51:28] Speaker A: Did you, did you say womb? Womb.
[00:51:30] Speaker C: Womb. Absolutely.
[00:51:33] Speaker A: I just want to tell you a funny thing. You know, there's.
[00:51:35] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:51:36] Speaker A: You might have some Buddhist friends and you know, they all go on about the Buddha. Nature.
Yeah, nature. But the word that they translate as nature and even into non Indian languages like Tibetan and Chinese, they also use a word that's like nature.
Sanskrit is garba. G A R B H A Garba actually means womb.
But they didn't want to tell the male shaman, you know, samurai and these guys. Oh, you guys have a Buddhist womb, A Buddha womb, meaning that your Buddha.
[00:52:11] Speaker C: Yes, exactly.
Oh, how beautiful.
[00:52:16] Speaker A: It didn't translate it properly because of their patriarchal crafts.
[00:52:20] Speaker C: That's right.
Yeah. I appreciate that, that share. I appreciate that.
[00:52:26] Speaker A: I have to ourselves. I have to.
[00:52:29] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:52:30] Speaker A: About time. Although I hope to see you again. I want to be patient. I do. I'm going to come whenever you set up and you're not flying by on a railway.
[00:52:41] Speaker C: Yes, yes. Well, I do see a handful of clients. Just a few. But I do see a few clients.
[00:52:48] Speaker A: I do. Really help me.
[00:52:50] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:52:51] Speaker A: Very relieved that I have someone else.
[00:52:53] Speaker C: If you do something like that. Right. Yes.
[00:52:56] Speaker A: My kids too. My daughter and everything.
[00:52:59] Speaker C: Yes.
Thank you so much, Bob. I've enjoyed our time together.
[00:53:05] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:53:06] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. Bev said we would enjoy each other, everybody.
[00:53:11] Speaker A: You go get this book, listening when parts Speak. And I can say, listening when your parts speak.
[00:53:21] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:53:22] Speaker A: She didn't do that. She's more relaxed than me, so she didn't say that. But Tamela Floyd, lscw, licensed social care worker. Is that right?
[00:53:34] Speaker C: Licensed clinical social worker, yes. Yeah.
[00:53:39] Speaker A: She's tremendous. The book is this, and I'm still learning from it. And I don't know how she's going to handle all the many of you who want to be her clients when you read this, but she's giving the book precisely because it will help you do it yourself, Absolutely. Carefully, at the many sides of yourself and be more confident that you can manage those better to have a better life. So that's what we have to do now because we're going to have a lot of trouble from outside in the coming period of time. Be sure of that. But it won't last long. Hopefully we'll get past it. Thank you so much.
[00:54:16] Speaker C: Always. Thank you so much, Bob. I enjoyed every moment.
[00:54:20] Speaker A: Me too.
[00:54:21] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:54:23] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:54:39] Speaker B: The Bob Thurman Podcast is produced. Your Creative Commons no derivatives license. Please be sure to like, share and repost on your favorite social media platforms. And it's brought to you in part through the generous support of the Tibet House U.S. menlo membership community and listeners like you.
To learn more about the benefits of Tibet House membership, please visit our websites@th thus.org Menlo Org and Bob Thurman.com Tashi the Lake and thanks for tuning in.
