Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:14 Welcome to my mom's Thurman podcast. I'm so grateful and some good friends enabled me to present them to you. If you enjoy them and find them useful, please think of becoming a member of Tibet house us to help preserve Tibetan culture. The control center in America have a great episode, 155 leasing, living, dying, and dreaming with Andrew hope check.
Speaker 1 00:01:12 I have a question for you actually, was it, you said that you had experienced meditating where you were consciously unconscious or unconsciously conscious. You mean what words would you you once told me that I didn't do when we first were committed communicating? Can you unpack that a little more? I really liked that. You see, I have a, I have a theory that enlightenment is everybody wants to be something simple. So they want, you know, for example, we like to sleep, sleep. We don't worry about a thing that's in a dream we might, but otherwise when we're sound keeping it over about a deep sleep and then wake up and then that's all same, same was in our sense field. So they want to align middle should be some simplistic state. I think it has to be a kind of embrace of cognitive dissonance, you know, without having to hop even back and forth, it's simultaneous embrace of opposite things.
Speaker 1 00:02:15 Absolutely. But then that's just the theory. Again, that's just a description, but you know, being so open that you can see both sides of something. So is that ultimate ultimate experience of that is to be conscious of experiencing yourself as unconscious. Yes. Can you unpack that more bit if we're talking about the same thing, you know, so yeah, I mean, both, both in terms of daytime formless, meditation, and also, you know, the sleep yoga, you know, because being consciously unconscious is, is another way to talk about this as kind of a super consciousness. So it's not, it's not the blacking out and this is actually a very subtle distinction. Um, when one falls into deep dreamless sleep, there, there are gradations
Speaker 2 00:03:00 Of this deep dreamless sleep, as there is in fact with death on one level, when you fall into deep Brene was the, it's not necessarily 10 check. It's not necessarily the same as the clear light mind. You know, if you're falling into the Viggiano, that can just be kind of a foggy blackout, but when you, when you descend into the ineffable and the literally ineffable matrix will be clear light mind, that's the super conscious mind that actually subset sub sense, even the Alia Viggiano. And so again, this is the diamond Todd, this is where we go and we die. This is Terea in Hindu tantra language, and this is in a certain ways. And again, this is also interesting because there's a very subtle tendency here, Bob, to become somewhat reductionistic thinking that somehow Turia dharmakaya Dharma, is it? Well it's partly yet in it's it's a third of it.
Speaker 2 00:03:56 You could say. And so what happens very often then is, is we as spiritual practitioners, we, we, we then had the unfortunate tendency to throw all eggs into that basket and then that position instead of transcending and including form, we transcend and exclude form. And so I think this is super important because this is where all the elitist, what Evan Thompson writes about. Buddhist exceptionalism, spiritual bypassing, all these subtle spiritual traps, where, like you said, at the outset, and this cannot be overstated that your in your awakening is incomplete. If it's disembodied, Kaia is there for a reason, the word Kaia is there for a reason. And so that may be part of it, but it's not it because if you don't suffuse your, um, formlessness with form, then you just become a God or you B you get stuck in some kind of, you know, um, stained, pure land, so to speak. So I'm not sure that's exactly what you're, what you're talking or asking about, but I think it's a really important point.
Speaker 1 00:05:00 Well, I'm just, just, just thinking about when you lose consciousness and when you, you know, what are taught, what do you call the four formulas realms or the four immaterial realms, even though Buddha scientists insists that there a subtle physical in them, but there's no sense of there being a physical in them. And the first of those realms is the realm of infinite space. And the second one is the realm of invented consciousness as the third one is the realm of nothing whatsoever. And then the fourth one is the realm of neither conscious nor unconscious. And supposedly one can attain those seats as a Yogi and actually don't have to be a Buddhist to do it. It's not a matter of Buddhist exceptionalism. I don't know. You told me about Evan. Evan is a former of mine, but he never really, he told me that he never really studied that much for me just got started.
Speaker 1 00:06:02 And then he went off on his own and, um, he got into he being a philosopher and then his, the Guild of himself as a philosopher, right. Does it allow for other kinds of exceptionalism because they're exclusively in philosophic exceptionalism. Exactly. Right. And they want that to be of course hard as the material scientist exception with him, which is the ultimate exceptionalism of the Academy nowadays, that's the high priests. Those are the high priests of the Academy. And the philosophers are desperate not to just be thought of as some sort of logisticians who you go there to the philosophy department to learn how to debate as a trial lawyer, as a preload saying, you know, they desperately want to get into having some realistic contribution to science. Yeah. So then they wanted the third. Therefore they want to be the most avid of holders of scientific exceptionalism. And we can join the Buddhist. We'll join them, but they don't want to be joined. They're like, it's like, uh, like a religious fanatics. They don't want your religion to be the same as their own agenda because they were, they weren't, there was to be uniquely, right.
Speaker 2 00:07:09 Isn't it that's beautifully said Bob, because fantastic. Because then what happens is a very subtle variant city as near enemy is then even rationality itself becomes an ideology.
Speaker 1 00:07:20 And, uh, it is, um, it's actually the mantra I prefer to call it being out about, up to then yoga Chara. Although people do call that yoga Chara means that yoga career or yoga practice and both there's a, there's some of the centrist Democrat, centrist, philosophers, they always are called their books, yoga Chara, you know, so, so I prefer to call the idealist version of Buddhism, uh, of Mahayana Buddhism, um, a mind only, or consciousness only figure out Nevada, you know, the advocacy of consciousness. And that basically is parallel and opposite to materialism. It's sort of mentalism is trying to reduce everything to the mind. And, um, it actually, uh, nobody ever, and people act like it's very philosophical and technical and scientific, and it's particularly wonderful in its piss symbology about the way language works in controlling perception. So the great thing about, um, philosophers were fabulous about that, about logic epistemology, how words form our experiences and things that really were good about that. And, um, but from the Centrus front of view, the what's called the Madame yamaka. And by that I don't mean what one of my students once said years ago in a class, they said the Buddhists have an ancient Jewish set called the mad yamikas.
Speaker 1 00:08:54 So, uh, but to my Democrats has been central. It's really, you know, it's the middle way, but then nobody wants to use the word Middle-East cause it sounds so barbaric, but centrists we have, and mother-in-law was, I mean, centers are the central way. And central way is where mind and matter are recognized as mutually interdependent either a course or subtle or super subtle level. And so in a way, if you take it all the way to mind, then it doesn't really matter. Mind doesn't mean anything anymore where it's not opposite of matter, just like when you're taking all the way to matter. It doesn't mean anything when there was no mind, you know what I mean, where there's only nothing and matter. It becomes meaningless and it becomes a trap. So, so, but the great thing about the Oliver's Yana idea, which is very prevalent, as I said, in East Asian Buddhism, particularly Chinese, and it really had a huge sway in China, Japan, and Korea and Vietnam.
Speaker 1 00:09:54 And, um, what is great about it is it gives your seeker of enlightenment the courage to undertake the bodhisattva path. Because if you think of the universe as mainly mine, then it doesn't seem so impossible that by transforming your mind, you can transform this more subtle material, which is the uterus. You follow me if it's a mind to fields. Uh, whereas if you, if the universe also has this material side, it seems more daunting. They were stars young, those young yuppies when they asked, how can we fix the world? You know, we, we want to be as, and love everybody and, and, and be kind and be wise, but we don't know how to fix the whole world. It seems so hard, such a huge daunting job. And then he helped them by saying it's a, it's a mind field of being, but mine is always embodied in this sort of centrist.
Speaker 1 00:10:56 Phew. You know, but yet it has that thing. I think it's, uh, you know, there's two lineages behind the border and Tibet and Buddhism. There's one, there's more than that, but there are two main ones and one is called the profound view lineage, which is the centrist with the yamaka centrist, Nagarjuna and Manjushri. And then there's called the magnificent deeds linear. And the magnificent diesel lineage is sort of, the bone is at the path, love and compassion that making the Buddha verse and transforming and that one to make us indeed ones kind of more emphasizes the mental is the mental listic nature of the world. So that's the real blessing of the Alia vagina teaching, even though it becomes dogmatic again, that there was no matter, then it's, it's again, not as good. And what has rated by the way you mentioned say about when we mentioned about realism, there was something I wanted to say to add there, and this is something I really appreciated about the Buddha Buddha smiling that morning.
Speaker 1 00:11:58 Right. And he starts teaching right away, all kinds of people. And he's so happy. It's all blissed out. He says, wow, I know everything's sort of Virginia. You know, it sounds great. That means time to him. I did it. That means I know everything. I just know everything. And it's totally great. I'm so happy. Unfortunately, I'm so sorry. I can't really describe it to you, but you can also, and you'll send it. And what I can do is I can help you with methods of how to accelerate your effort to understand it. I can encourage you that you can, but the reason I can't describe it to you is because anyway, it's beyond normal linear dualistic verbiage. Do you know what I mean? It's it's uh, it's it's it's so it's astonishing. It's like a miracle beyond any kind of dogmatic formulation. So while it's total realism, like the good part of science, modern science, it privileges experience over theory, right?
Speaker 1 00:13:12 So that even the Bardot theories are incredibly useful and powerful, but they're not absolute dogmas. Somebody might have experienced it all a little differently. These are considered, tried and true over thousands of years are really, really useful, but you know, there's not the final thing. And it has to be exactly seven days exactly. This and exactly that. So, so, you know, feel free to improvise is the idea, you know, you learn it as a, as a scheme. It's like, you know, you could learn all kinds of things about dynamics, about your surf board, about how to wax it, how to look for waves and do things. And then finally you have to get Terran, served a wave and let yourself down and fall down lots of times. And then finally you let yourself go with the world with the water and then it will be beyond any kind of theoretical thing. But if you don't know how, if you get your board is too short, too long, you don't take advantage of what people have learned in previous experience. Then you're, you're making an extra necessarily hard for yourself. Okay. You want to tackle that, Andrew?
Speaker 2 00:14:21 Yeah. And again, you know, this will be interesting to talk to ping a little bit about Bob, because you know, the, the coughy NEMA version of this, maybe a little bit interesting in terms of the Gulu, but, um, rendition, but here's my understanding and I'll test it against yours and we'll see where this goes. Yeah, this is, this is a yoga Chara, um, teaching a tenant. Um, it's very interesting to me. Alia is in Himalaya, right? Um, rain.
Speaker 1 00:14:45 Yes. Hemo house of snow.
Speaker 2 00:14:49 Yes, exactly. And so Shanana, um, wisdom, um, vagina. The prefix is VI is to bifurcate fracture or divide. So Alia Vinci, Nona virtually synonymous with eighth consciousness is in fact very interesting. It's small, it's basically fractured divided wisdom. And so the Alia Viviana is I, as I understand it is the basis of the relative samsaric world. Aaliyah's Nona is the basis of it all. And so when we die in L R a mutual friend, Ellen Wallace talks about Alia, Digi, Nona storehouse consciousness. There's a kind of, um, um, STEM cell consciousness. It's, it's actually prehuman even, and it is, it is kind of the matrix that's using this particular schema that in fact, we return to at the end of the eightfold disillusion, and this is an interesting segue because this is what Bob and I are going to be talking about a lot, what actually constitutes the eightfold dissolution into the <inaudible> and then into the Alia <inaudible> slash clear light mind.
Speaker 2 00:16:00 And so according to the yoga Chara teachings, which are not accepted by all schools, the Alia Vigi Nona is, um, what therefore continues, but it's not an it it's it's, uh, in order to really understand this. And this is what we will also be talking about. One quite literally has to change the way one thinks. Um, we think in terms of things, we think things. And so when we talk about things like the Alia, the geode that we return to that then continues, and we incarnates is this kind of STEM cell mind. That's not such a simple, easy thing to completely tease apart because it actually changed it. It requires a change in the way we think, and what's called epistemology, but fundamentally it's, it's prehuman, um, you could very carefully with as many quotations as you can put on either side and Bob, I'd love to hear what you say about this. This is probably as close as the Buddhist tradition would come to the four letter word soul. But of course, because it's not a net it's, it's just a kind of predisposition or repository of leaking tendencies. So that's my phone.
Speaker 2 00:17:10 That's perfectly good. Yeah. And I think this is a good place to throw into the next Bob, that what we'll be doing during this week is working through the three projects. Gino's, you know, the three wisdom tools in just digest metabolize, hearing, contemplating meditating, where in fact, what you're saying is really the ultimate point is, is, um, you know, experience really supersedes it's where everything fundamentally comes into the full literal InBody mint incorporation. I'll be doing the morning sessions. We'll have two sessions, three hours in the morning, um, and the three hours in the afternoon, um, I will be taking, um, the morning sessions Bob requested, if he could do the afternoon kind of information, didactic part, um, the meditations and the contemplations really, I think are the most important. And so, um, I will be guiding you through a series of practices, um, some of which you may already be doing, but maybe bring a new lens to these practices and, uh, show you a way to basically die before you die, to be introduced to practices that are, um, extraordinarily effective in terms of preparing us for this final transition.
Speaker 2 00:18:22 We'll also be working with contemplation practice. I'll send you some guidelines along those lines. Um, something I wrote up that I sent, um, got some great feedback from Bible bow, and then we'll be engaging in some formal active contemplations that are also very supportive of these teachings. And so again, we'll be working through this standard, very classic, elegant educational pedagogical approach, hearing contemplating meditating, ingest, digest, metabolize. Um, and I'll say more about that tomorrow, because this is a particularly important set of kind of, um, metabolic practices, so to speak that are really helpful in the Bartels where the teachings literally almost become you and, um, can be of tremendous benefit, not only to yourself, but to those around you. One of the great beauties of, of these wisdom traditions is their sophistication and refinement of terms that we use somewhat colloquially. So when, for instance, you use the word mind, um, people in this business would say, are you talking about Sam lo rigpa Yasha? You know, there are all these gradations of mine. So the first thing that comes well, maybe I can just send it back in your court. When you say mine stream, are you referring to Santana to Sam to load you? Do you have a sense of what you're meaning by that? And if not, I can give you just a generic,
Speaker 3 00:19:49 Uh, right. I, I obviously don't, but I'm not sophisticated enough to use it more than just call it.
Speaker 2 00:19:56 Yeah, no, that's cool. That's all good. So, um, with that said, then yes, you could say it's mine stream, and this is a, it's a nice way to talk about something that fundamentally really cannot even be articulated within the realm of language. This is a little bit what Bob was alluding to earlier, um, to really understand these Bardot tenants, to understand reality, to understand what, what is it that continues is, is a, it, it's not such a simple thing. Um, it's not an it. And so stream is, is a little bit more in the direction, you know, the finger pointing towards the moon. Um, and so yes, in the briefest sense, when you're talking about Alia, Viggiano, it's the samsaric mind stream, it's still within the domain of Samsara. This is the, of some Saara below. That is the, the indestructible continuum that the view that Dr uh, permanent was talking about, that's the indestructable continuum of the nature of mind itself, which is <inaudible>, that's even more foundational than Alia Viggiano.
Speaker 2 00:21:04 So all you bet Gina is, is the stream of samsaric propensities, the storehouse consciousness, the repository of these BGS or karmic seeds that continues. It's not an, it, it's just a series of kind of momentum push movement, wind. Um, and then below that is that collapses. Um, even that arises from this completely ineffable indestructable, um, continuum that is, you know, interestingly enough, this tradition probably has a hundred names for that, but in nature to target the garb Dharma, tar dharmakaya you name it. And so maybe I'll leave it at that because, um, as you can see, it starts to get a little bit deeper, farther down this way, but all you go so long cheap product, you know, at this level it becomes, it was almost the, the correlate to, um, body. So when we talk about things like the indestructable, Bindu the instructable continuum, the body, so to speak that supports that is, is a type of loan.
Speaker 2 00:22:07 Um, and so again, that's long is kind of space and motion it's mind and motion. And, and so there is an intimation of that. That's a different vocabulary. That's kind of, uh, inner yogic vocabulary when you're working with these types of terms, but there are correlates between wins and what we're talking about here, for sure. Um, there are what are referred to in, in kind of a different framework, what are called deep structures and surface structures. And so, as we go through, as we go down this kind of chipper, um, pardon the gallows humor. When we die, we go through this, this chipper of the disillusion of the eight stages of mine, eight stages of consciousness. And, um, the most superficial levels are all highly indoctrinated and culturated, and the farther down you go in a certain sense, the more those adventitious or superficial surface structures dissolve, and the more you enter this kind of commonality, um, somebody can, she would call young referred to as the collective unconscious, but obviously even deeper than that, this is kind of the collective super consciousness and that, that, uh, that kind of bed of mind, we all share that not just with the human species, but with all sentience forms, but, um, this is something that's only experienced ever so briefly, especially with, with an untrained mind it's not experienced at all, or I should, I should take that back.
Speaker 2 00:23:42 It's experienced, but it's not recognized. Um, and so for the untrained mind, when one collapses into that dimension, literally in the Bardo teachings called the luminous Bardot of Dharma, luminous, Bardot of reality, luminosity and emptiness formless dimensions, there is this kind of universality, capitalist city of mine that is revealed, but the minute that you kind of move from that leaf from that, then, then the journey becomes different. And so a Christian, um, very unlikely that they would experience the archetypes of the deities as the Tibetans, um, articulated. And this is why Bob was talking about it in his translation. You know, there are many ways to work with the experiences that arise, um, at that level. So it's a yes or no on one level. Yes, there is a commonality at the very deepest, most foremost dimensions of mine, or every level of form and, uh, um, structure dissolves, but then almost immediately when one arises from that and moves from that.
Speaker 2 00:24:47 And that's what happens with the untamed untrained mind. That's in fact, the transition from the luminous of Dharma tie into the comic Bardot becoming then the, the, the experience becomes more personal idiosyncratic and your PR your propensity is then kind of kicked back into gear, um, hence karmic Bardo of becoming, and then it's different, but the fundamental archetypal principles is the same. And so some scholars talk about this, and I'll, I'll just say this without too much explanation, but this is somewhat important. They talk about the extraordinary mapping that the Bartle literature puts out as a type of ritualized phenomenology that may seem like a mouth load. But what it basically means is that there's a, there's a, a near enemy to the articulate process described by these traditions where we can get kind of lost in the map. Um, and so maybe that's enough for that, that, yes, most people, what they recognize as their Bardo experience is definitely going to be colored by their personal histories, by their collective histories, by their, um, cultures and the like, so we're not all going to have the same type of journey once the journey starts to move so to speak.
Speaker 2 00:26:02 So there are, there are certain agents like, um, like alcohol that they do their REM suppressors. Um, but there are other agents as well, certain medications, um, psychiatric meds and the, like that have a, uh, you know, biochemical, um, effect on the brain. They can make, uh, lucid dreaming a little bit more challenging, but it doesn't exclude you from the practice of lucid dreaming. Uh, you can still gain success because, and this is quite important because dream, first of all, we have to make a little bit of a difference between lucid dreaming and dream yoga. Dream yoga is a larger, and within that larger embrace, there are, there are actually four. And, and if you look at it in an even wider lens, five practices that constitute what I refer to as these nocturnal meditations of which lucid dreaming is just one. And so this is a really big topic.
Speaker 2 00:27:04 And so I'm just going to maybe send a few things out and see what Bob has to say. But for instance, if you're not able to have recollection of dreams and lucid dreams, per se, are a little bit challenging, you can engage in a really powerful practice of what's called liminal dreaming, which is kind of that pre and post sleep state. What Pema children talks about is a plasma of the mind where the mind is basically Tran literally transforming from waking consciousness to dream or sleep consciousness. And this liminal state a threshold state is a completely viable way to work with lucidity principles. So, one thing to say here is don't limit your lucid dreaming to just lucid dreaming, raise your gaze, embrace things like liminal dreaming, all these other kinds of kind of States that aren't necessarily shrink, wrapped at the lucid dreaming proper and understand that lucid lucidity altogether is a code word for awareness.
Speaker 2 00:28:05 So the fundamental point here is to work with one's awareness, um, fundamentally as Bob was alluding to earlier under all circumstances. And this is the great contribution of the Tibetan kind of armamentarium of skillsets is literally there are meditations for every Bardot for every state of consciousness. And so this is a, you know, maybe I'll send this Bob's way. There's so much to say here, but my first intuition is don't give up. Is it telling us the Dalai Lama says of anything of value, never give up and just realize that there are different bandwidths of the nocturnal mind that ness that, you know, aren't necessarily lucid draining per se, that you can still absolutely positively work with. So, Bob, I'm curious if you have anything else to say along the way,
Speaker 1 00:28:54 I thought what you said is quite wonderful and what popped in my mind, listening to Judas a thing and believe me when I travel for example, and get chip lags and this and that, I love Zolpidem tartrate. I think it's a great thing, but you know, the other thing is if you have that and you know, you can get to sleep with it, you can start experimenting, you can do some retreats sometimes like, like this retreat that you're doing here, and you can, you know, you've got that to go to sleep with, and then you can pick yourself up and start exploring, like what you might think about where I was staying up a little bit. And instead of, you know, you're tired, but then while tired sort of think about, but you can drift into a kind of
Speaker 4 00:29:45 Semi sleep state
Speaker 1 00:29:48 And let your fantasies go, et cetera. Cause you know,
Speaker 4 00:29:52 When you're fit really it's too late
Speaker 1 00:29:54 And you have to get up in the morning, then you can go in and you can knock herself out with it, but the Zolpidem or whatever it is that you use, or they have also John's ward and all kinds of other, like, like a net so-called natural
Speaker 4 00:30:06 Thing. But, um, so I would
Speaker 1 00:30:08 Encourage you and I think you already encouraged her. You wouldn't be here if you want to sort of begin to notice how to modulate your, um, your consciousness. And, um, and I think that's really,
Speaker 4 00:30:21 And, um, I'm also,
Speaker 1 00:30:23 I have to say after reading Michael Pollan's book it, how to control your mind, change your mind. Yeah. I think the resurgence of good psychedelic therapist and therapist, Oh, all kinds of other therapists. I think that's a really great thing for people who have long-term problems that they can go back and find out why they felt.
Speaker 4 00:30:47 I also had a little problem when I was a child. I had, um, I was worried about what was outside of the bed. And therefore I had a lion that lived under my bed. Know I didn't actually have a dog because we lived in an apartment in New York city, but I had a lion under there. And then I would sometimes when I would wake up or something at night, I would go out and ask a parent and say that I needed milk and cookies for Richard. I called the lion Richard. I don't know why lighthearted.
Speaker 4 00:31:20 And I would say Richard, Richard, I would say, Richard, Richard wants a cookie. Richard wants some milk or milk. And sometimes I would get it, you know, that's not right. And Richard would get it. So I had done a little bit too, you know, and, um, I have found, and I have many, many testimonials from all over the world that, uh, people who are Christians or secularists are all kinds of, have not from necessarily only from Buddhists and, um, uh, that they found great sellers in using the book of the dead that I did because I tried to make it useful for people who are not necessarily Buddhists. You always say, put Jesus in here, Mary, some angels, Moses, whoever rabbi Hillel, whoever you want, you know, Krishna, in other words, don't have to be this and that exact Buddha isn't that day. And, but the point is, read it as if the person who passed is there listening and probably they are in those few months, in a, in a month or so on two and a half or so after they're after death.
Speaker 4 00:32:36 And maybe the very first day, not so much because they're of spaced out, but for attending, they're going to be there. And they go back to the people they knew and they love and who loves them and they go, they go to their own funerals and it's important to tell them, no, you can't get back. It's your body. Don't dry. I'd also, no, I love certain things that they say don't be mad at the priest in the funeral. If he's having like a, if he's only thinking about dinner and he's, mumbo-jumbo without putting his mind into it, and don't be annoyed if uncle Joe is having negative thoughts about you, he's saying nice things, but you can read is because you might be able to read his mind and you're sort of a little bit ghost like Bardo and you kind of wonder, wonder what's happening.
Speaker 4 00:33:25 So that's a great gift of the book of natural liberation or so-called book of the dead is, is realizing that at the time of death, especially I've a very dearly beloved person where you might be really upset and you normally would be. But the main person who could be getting upset is the one who is traveling in between. It's not like they just don't exist anymore. They are, they are under a most challenging transition unless they're already highly prepared to navigate that transition. So sending your best vibe with them being as chewed up, as you can, sharing with them all positive images of where they can go. And you'd be afraid of this for that. If they happen to have like a couple of, you know, see some negative things and look for the angelic beings to help time and all this other words, and then bracket that and a month or two later, you can moan and groan.
Speaker 4 00:34:25 And if he's very unhappy yourself without fear that that happiness will disturb the one who departed and make them feel sad that they have departed or something like that. And we do have an aspect of some of we really love, there's a subliminal aspect in our psychology. I'm encouraged to note from what I've studied and my colleagues who are professionals that we kind of, we've got a little sense of anger on someone we really depend on that abandoned us. And so sometimes the high demonstrative level in some cultures about freaking out about someone passing away, uh, can also partly be, um, not helpful towards that way to either you or the person who's the party. So, so that's, uh, that's I think an important lesson that the book would be, and I had so many people say, well, you know, I felt kind of weird.
Speaker 4 00:35:19 I took a picture of my beloved and put it in front of me. And then I took out that book and then I read some passages. Now you can watch this. Don't be afraid of that Senator, et cetera. Okay. And then I even praised it and things they might expect, maybe they don't know who, whatever I wrote, tryna all these kind of things. But some of the, the, the divine forms are a bit strange to people who have not had familiarity with the Tibetan thing. So they have to transpose it into their own culture. I think that will be very helpful to you. Okay. I hope that's okay. Lots of love everyone. Okay. All the best. Thank you, Andrew.
Speaker 0 00:36:17 The Bob Thurman podcast is brought to you in part through the generous support of the Tibet house, us Menlo membership, community, and listeners like you, and it's released under a creative commons, no derivatives license, please be sure to share like, and post on your favorite social media platforms. Thanks for tuning in.
