Speaker 1 00:00:14 Welcome to my Bob Thurman podcast. I'm so grateful. Some good friends enabled me to present them to you. If you enjoy them and find them useful, please think of becoming a member of Tibet house us to help preserve Tibetan culture. Tibet house is the dial Lamas cultural center in America. All best wishes. Have a great day.
Speaker 2 00:00:48 This is episode 303, a Tibet house, us men, LA conversation.
Speaker 1 00:01:18 Okay, now welcome everybody to the podcast and welcome to mahi and to his wonderful book on dreams. And I'm really delighted mahi to talk to you because I also have been wanting for ages to really develop a better dream yoga. And your book is the best one I've seen lately, uh, about how to learn to do become El lucid dreamer. And that is an absolutely essential practice to prepare for Deb Bardo to prepare you don't have to be a Buddhist. Even you prepare for Bardo, prepare for death, prepare for navigating the Bardo properly and finding a good rebirth. And so your book, is it, so how does it work? Tell us,
Speaker 3 00:02:07 Well, I think thank you, Bob. Uh, it's exciting to be here. I've been looking forward to this and, um, um, well to start with, uh, with lucid dreaming, Luci dreaming, as most people know is a dream in which you know that you are dreaming and, uh, uh, it has, uh, it has many advantages to, uh, to become aware in the dream state and it, uh, it, it ranges from, um, the ability to ask for support and guidance for one's own life, uh, uh, problems. You can yell out a question. Is there anyone with a message for me, or you can ask for an experience, and then in the, in the further stages, you can really start learning how, uh, the dream world is created and yes, uh, and once you, uh, start noticing that you start seeing how that reality, uh, is one is real and is created, and also how this reality is created in, in, in the same way. And, uh, and, and that has a lot of benefits because then you start exploring the nature of reality and we can make the assumptions that the Bardo and all these other states, uh, are created in similar ways. And then we can navigate through the territory once we're there.
Speaker 1 00:03:28 Yes, yes. That is really wonderful. And how did you come upon it yourself? What, how did you learn to do this yourself? What was, what's your story? Where, where are you by the way, but again, you were against that nice brick wall. <laugh> where, where are you? Where are you located right now?
Speaker 3 00:03:45 I am, uh, these days I live in salt lake city, but, uh, I see
Speaker 1 00:03:49 The actually really salt lake city. Wow.
Speaker 3 00:03:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, uh, I've landed here. I used to live in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, and, uh, before that, uh, I was born in South Africa and I, uh, got a job offer here in, in, in salt lake. And so I, I moved and now I found,
Speaker 1 00:04:08 Oh, that's great.
Speaker 3 00:04:09 Grown down a bit.
Speaker 1 00:04:11 That's great. And when did you start knowing dreams? Was it a spontaneous thing or what, how did it happen?
Speaker 3 00:04:17 Well, it, I, I was in my early twenties, uh, that, uh, that I was really in, in, in dire need of, uh, of, uh, um, of the dreams. And, uh, I was in, uh, in, in, in, in a darker spot. I hadn't dealt well with the death of my father who died when I was 10. Oh,
Speaker 1 00:04:35 Dear. Um, oh dear.
Speaker 3 00:04:37 Yeah, very painful. And the unresolved grief, uh, made me, uh, somewhat depressed and being in the, in the pit, I lacked a future vision. I was sitting on the couch too much, doing nothing. And by some fortunate chance, I read the works of Carl Hume who wrote extensively about dreams. And then, uh, oh, great.
Speaker 1 00:04:59 I,
Speaker 3 00:05:00 And then I, uh, um, started looking at my own dreams and at once, uh, my somewhat limited world view that was limited to more or less what I could see really opened up yes. To other reality. And that, uh, that there's an, that the dream is really a reality in its own. It's actually, yes. A fundamental aspect. I think about dreams is that it is a world that you find yourself in at night. Yes. And, uh, and, and once I start learning that world, it's, it showed me a lot of things I was doing in my day to day life. So in that way it can form somewhat of an psychological x-ray yet at the same time. Ah, wow. I, I, I reconnected with my father in the world of dream. And so I started noticing, oh, when you're, uh, when you're dead, it's not the end of the journey. Actually, you go to this other really, you go to other realms and, uh,
Speaker 1 00:05:58 Fantastic.
Speaker 3 00:05:59 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:06:00 Yeah. He told you that.
Speaker 3 00:06:02 Yeah. And I, uh, I had, uh, conversations with him and later on with other people that live in the other world world of, of yeah. The dream or the, I call sometimes call it the other in other world. And, uh, it's so, uh, it, it changes life so significantly from maybe there is something after death to, oh, life goes on and then to explore what, what might also be, uh, some criteria on the moment that you move to this other world. Uh, right. And, and that, and that really drives also a sense of purpose in this world because, uh, in a certain way, death is the end point of life. And the end point really defines the journey and Uhhuh, if you have a certain belief about what death is that will influence the way you live this life. So it's it's
Speaker 1 00:06:56 Of course, of
Speaker 3 00:06:57 Course, it's, it's maybe the most pragmatic thing we can do is, uh, ponder about death because that really <laugh> put us, it is from the journey.
Speaker 1 00:07:08 That's very true. That's a hundred percent true. And then does that mean that, uh, um, so did you then go on from that and study more other things about dream yogas or, or dream, dream, dream messages and so on? What, what other things?
Speaker 3 00:07:25 Yeah, I, uh, I, um, uh, became, uh, uh, bordering obsessed by reading all kinds of, uh, dream traditions. So I really studied young for a while. That was the first one. Yes. And then I, uh, I, I traveled to Asia and, uh, mm-hmm, <affirmative> spent a year in, uh, in, in Asia, went to India and TBE, and really learned there these, uh, the, the, these really profound, uh, mm-hmm <affirmative> traditions that, uh, mm-hmm, <affirmative> that look really at, at not only in what does the dream mean, but how can we mm-hmm, <affirmative> learn about from the dream, how that reality is created and mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, and, and I think, um, one of the central things is it in the dream, we can see how our mind or psyche creates this world. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and it's, and, and how it, how there's I sometimes metaphorically call it, there's an inner painter that paints a world Uhhuh in, in dream.
Speaker 3 00:08:31 And then it BES the question, what kind of paint does this painter use <laugh>? And so, uh, uh, it, it uses in one way, you could say it uses our karma by which it, uh, paints a reality that we perceive. So we really see our own mind yes. Or in union terms, uh, it uses a lot of our complexes and, and wounds and gifts. Uh mm-hmm <affirmative> or, uh, what you also can see is, uh, um, uh, the, the world is created in, in a, in, uh, our, out of our own beliefs and expectations, intent, willpower focus, and, and so mystery force X. And then, uh, uh, you see that, uh, in the dream state, this world is, is, is created by one's mind or psyche, but also this reality is created in, in identical ways. So what we see is, is always our own world, and there's somewhat an outer world, but this painter paints over this world Uhhuh, and that world then reflects back our beliefs and, uh, expectations and intent and, or, or our karma. And so we can learn how to work with our karma or, uh, navigate this world in a, in a way that's
Speaker 1 00:09:57 Absolutely really
Speaker 3 00:09:59 Optimal. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:09:59 That's amazing. That is really amazing. It's incredible. And, uh, and, um, so you said you came to, so that's what you mean, maybe by that wonderful phrase, you said a psychological x-ray of our waking, waking issues in waking state.
Speaker 3 00:10:18 Yes.
Speaker 1 00:10:18 And did you ever, did you ever study about the, um, uh, philosophical, Indian scientific concept of emptiness? Uh SHTA
Speaker 3 00:10:31 I, I, I, I, I attempted to, but I don't feel like I'm, uh, anywhere, uh, uh, an action.
Speaker 1 00:10:38 No, no, but you are, but, but you naturally understand it. I said, it's Indian scientific, psychological, uh, concept. I didn't say Buddhist. It's not a religious thing. And, uh, you, you, you, you do understand it. I think very well, because what you're saying is exactly the fruit of understanding emptiness, because what emptiness is, is where it opens the canvas of that, what we think of as the given ordinary world waking world. And it makes us realize that it, it, it, by gradually dissolving the seeming absolute objectivity of everything, it opens it up as a canvas for our painting, and then we become more responsible for our painting. And so you precisely understood emptiness by using the dream to relativize your experience of, of the, the so-called given external reality, and to begin to see how you are coloring that reality, and you're creating it. And each, each of us has our own version of the given external reality.
Speaker 1 00:11:50 Uh, and they, they somehow meet in a, a subtle way. It's not all right, and it's not, so it's not. So CTIC, in other words, our version meets the other version. Mm-hmm <affirmative> right. In other words, you and I are meeting on a podcast and we each have a version of what we're doing and, and, uh, uh, but they meet somewhere. And yet each of them is, is, is different because of the, we, we bring to it our own painter as you put it. Yeah. So then what, tell us more about the painter. How do you, this helps you paint more skillfully perhaps, or take your own painting with a grain of salt, or how do you see it
Speaker 3 00:12:31 Again? Because, uh, the, the painter uses, uh, uh, let's say our karma and in a, in a certain way, it paints also, uh, uh, the areas where we, where we need to engage. So yes, certain certain areas become more colorful, whether that is a darker color or a lighter color, uh, and the color usually isn't the indicative element, but the intensity of the color, which either draws us in, or pushes us away signals to us that there is some unresolved or, uh, invited area to work on, or maybe it's karma or a complex. And so you might be, uh, afraid to speak up to our boss. Then our own painter has painted over our boss, uh, a certain color, a certain experience, uh, yes, that we need to engage with. And so the intensity of the, of the, of the colors are, are guiding posts in our life. And the more that we know that this, uh, this, maybe this boss is not, it's not really the boss, but it's our own psyche that we engage with the better off we are.
Speaker 1 00:13:54 Yes, yes, yes. That's really great. Now, now you mentioned that you studied a lot of Y yes or Carl yum in doing that and where in his work did you find the things that were the most useful in coming to this profound understanding that you exhibit? And what I love about it is, you know, some people will say, oh, that's Buddhist philosophy, but no it's reality. And you discovered it just by exploring reality with the help of Y initially, and then later some Buddhist and Hindu teachers. So it's a general, it's a general worldwide what we call in India, uh, Thema, VI, India, inner science. And it's, you discovered from reality, you don't discover it from this or that ideology or religion, or what, what have you, and, and of course, different, uh, Yong might not agree at every point with this particular Buddhist writer or that particular Hindu writer, they might not agree with each other, but they might agree with each other two Hindu writers might disagree with each other. Two Buddhist writers might disagree with each other. They're all actually inner scientists or psychologists, psychologists, philosophers studying reality, and you studied it yourself. And you came up with the same understanding and then developed the same, the, uh, unique abilities because of your own, your own karma. You could say, you know, your own special wiring and your own previous life, even, let's say so. So, uh, so tell us where in the Yung work did you find the most important and interesting things?
Speaker 3 00:15:29 Well, uh, Y uh, never really, uh, uh, writes a lot about lucid dreaming, but what, uh, what, what one of the essential initial steps were, was, uh, the, the dream is a reality and Uhhuh, uh, and our own imagination is a reality. And I think especially here in the west, we discount that and it's being marginalized, but
Speaker 1 00:15:54 Yes,
Speaker 3 00:15:55 Step one is, um, imagination. Dream is real. And, uh, yes, uh, one of the things I I've always, uh, uh, been, uh, baffled by is we go to bed and, um, then, uh, uh, we're, we're, we're in a world in this dream that we completely take for real. We, we very seldom besides when we're lucid think, oh, this alligator is actually a dream alligator, or this is a dream car. And, and so we are in a world that we take for real, then we wake up and, um, that world goes away. And then we're in this world that we take for real. So we have a tendency to be constantly in worlds, in a world that we take for real. And usually as the only reality.
Speaker 1 00:16:42 Yes.
Speaker 3 00:16:43 And, and, and by understanding that there is a dream reality, and there's this reality, and there are multiple realities, but that there are these, these several realities that we live in. Yes. And that we all take for real. And once we, we know it, it relativizes each reality significantly. And, uh, and we
Speaker 1 00:17:04 Start
Speaker 3 00:17:05 Living in a different way. So that is where you really help me, uh, to move into, into exploring and reality in that way. And I think most of Y's work is more on dream interpretation. And, and how do you, uh, build relationship with the dream characters? So also, yes, some of the dream characters are, are real beings that live in the other world. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:17:28 And they, yes.
Speaker 3 00:17:30 About greater awareness or wisdom or they can
Speaker 1 00:17:33 Outside.
Speaker 3 00:17:35 And,
Speaker 1 00:17:35 Uh, that's wonderful.
Speaker 3 00:17:36 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:17:37 So you mentioned that you came to sole lake cuz you had a job. Are you working in the dream world? Is that the job you have or are you, are you doing an ordinary sort of more ordinary, uh, regular, rural job
Speaker 3 00:17:50 Or what I was, I was working in, uh, in, in marketing, uh, 18 years ago, then I, uh, became a mental health therapist here in, uh, oh great. I went to Pacific eye school in Santa Barbara and uh, and so I've been a mental health therapist with a specialty on working with dreams and uh, yeah, this background notion of how, how life is, because I think it's really important, uh,
Speaker 1 00:18:17 To fantastic. You, I have another name. I have another name for maybe your overall job just came to me. You're the imaginate
Speaker 3 00:18:27 <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:18:30 Know there's the Terminator and there's the imagination.
Speaker 1 00:18:34 <laugh> and it's not a word, but we should make a word out of it. In other words, because of your discovery, because see, that's the thing, see, people wrongly think even Buddhi so-called Buddhist people think or actual Buddhist people think that that the ness thing means that to wake up from the real, from this quote, seemingly objective real world is to everything is just space and empty space. And they, and you can't have an experience of empty space where you, where that's everything, you don't even have a body in it. You just are the empty space. That kind of experience is meditatively achievable. And they think that's the higher reality. But that's a mistake because of the non-duality of emptiness. That, because that is also empty, the space experience is also empty, is also a painting. There's a, there's an imaginate. We are imaginating the space in a way.
Speaker 1 00:19:29 And so the, the, the goal, the real awakening is where you know that this world so-called dream world is also simultaneously the space pure space. And there's also simultaneously a dream. And then there are multiple dreams, etcetera, and then you, you become much more, uh, in, in other words, instead of escaping into space, you become much more responsible about how you paint the world and therefore you become much more karmically responsible and you don't wanna paint it badly ever. And, and you help others. You help influence others to not paint it badly to know and not see at too many enemies and too many things project their difficulties into others and, you know, project the Demonn onto the boss. So they can't talk to the boss mm-hmm <affirmative> and they secretly hate the boss. And therefore they see it. They don't do good work <laugh> or they blow up the company or whatever, you know what I mean? If it gets really bad. Yeah. So that's really, so it's mahi the imagin
Speaker 3 00:20:39 <laugh> that it, I, I, I, I love having this new, uh, this new term, Bob. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:20:45 Good. I love it too. I, I hope to join you, you know, I hope to join you and become, I'm not as good as you as on this. And I hope to learn more from your work. I, I have already learned a bit, but I'm stupidly too busy about too many things in the so-called real world. And I therefore don't pay enough attention to my dream things. And I don't call it even though it's a major practice of, of Tibetan Buddhism, but I don't do it enough. And you're encouraging me from reality. That's what I love about it. It's cuz it means it's not just some dog mugs, you know? So now let me ask you this now, are you still talking to your dad? Occasionally? Do you encounter him and still talk to him?
Speaker 3 00:21:25 Yeah. Once in a while. Uh, not so frequent, uh, anymore. Uh, and, uh, um, but it's, it's really comforting and uh, I, uh, I say hi to him once in a while.
Speaker 1 00:21:40 Oh God. Yeah. But do you, did he, has he given you any indication of where he might have decided to take rebirth in a, in a meat space world or in a, in a more course level reality world? No, he has not given a,
Speaker 1 00:21:56 Any indication of that. Not yet. I see. That was fascinating. I don't know if do you, you know, I have a friend, um, who, uh, has, does contact, uh, with people, you know, in the dream world, let's say, or in the, between world mm-hmm <affirmative> and, uh, and, uh, and sometimes they've already been reborn somewhere and they inform him about it, but they're still available in the subtle world. Yeah. So it doesn't, it's not precluding one another, he at least according to his discovery, rich martini is his name. He, I, I don't know if you ever bumped into him. He lives, he's in the, he's a west coast guy, Hollywood sort of guy. He's a film guy, but he also does this as a, has become a main thing for him. He has a book called flip side goes, it, he goes to between state to flip side <laugh> yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:22:48 And I don't know if he personally, he works with, uh, mediums, you know, uh, since sensitive and I don't know if his dream thing, he might be back with me at a lesser level than you has being very, a really immediately, uh AEPT at, at, uh, sort of loser, dreaming time type of thing, which I'm not able to do, although I sometimes get into it, but I have to, I could probably, if I really focus on a calm down my lifestyle, which I should do for crying out loud, I'm in my eighties. <laugh> and, uh, but I still find myself having some duties that keep me busy, which is, you know, all, although my wife claims maybe it's my workaholic habit, I don't know, but I'm trying to listen. It, I'm trying to listen. It so well, your,
Speaker 3 00:23:34 Your, your, your awareness practice would, uh, would set you up as an ideal candidate to also
Speaker 1 00:23:40 Be, oh, good. Well, I'm gonna, well, I want you to be my teacher. I'm gonna, I'm gonna more thoroughly read your book and I want you to be my teacher through the book first of course. And then I'll be more in touch because we'll do a more podcast because I'm very, very moved and touched by encountering the imagin
Speaker 3 00:24:04 Makes it, makes me also think of, of a couple of things you point out. And that is one, uh, uh, uh, dreaming, uh, and lucid dreaming helps a person to have this own experience. And I think, uh, that stood so out when you said that is, you don't have to believe, uh, anything because you can explore it for yourself. Yes. And that's, uh, that that's of course a crucial difference. And, uh, and this is a technique that, uh, people can practice and, and, and, and learn how, uh, how, how the painter operates. I can give a quick example that pops into my mind.
Speaker 1 00:24:41 Yeah. Oh, good. What's that?
Speaker 3 00:24:44 Well, I, I was once in a, in a, in a, in a dream and I was running with these big steps. And at once I, I think, oh my gosh, this is a dream. And, uh, uh, so it become lucid. And then I stand in front of a house also with a brick wall like this. And I, and I think, can I push because this is a dream, can I push through the wall with my hand, which I can, and I thought, of course I can, because I expect it to, uh, to be, and so I, I can push through it. So your expectation, uh, uh, defines, creates the reality. Yes. If I expect, I cannot, I cannot. So I push my hands through the wall and then I it's in the wall and I feel the stones even around my arm. And I'm, I'm always amazed by how real these things feel.
Speaker 3 00:25:34 And then I think what, what if I don't want to be able to have my, to pull my hand back and I try it, but I can. And, uh, so I pull my hand out of it and I took that, uh, and then I do some other things and I wake up, write it down. And then, uh, it really made me ponder on, uh, expectation. Yeah, just overrides willpower. And, uh, and that is as a therapist or for, in this reality, so important because I might expect if my expectation is that, uh, people don't like me, then my expectation is gonna co-create that reality. And there will be more people start behaving in a way that people, uh, more often will not like me, but will power. Uh, won't change that because if my expectation functions on a deeper level than my willpower. So just by telling myself, I don't want this, I don't want this. Or some affirmation is not gonna, uh, change the expectation level. So I need to work on an, on an, on an level where I slowly start changing the way I expect the world to work,
Speaker 1 00:26:47 Because
Speaker 3 00:26:48 That then will start changing the world. So my inner painter has, has negative expectation, and I can, I can, I can create different, a different paint that is, uh, more conducive.
Speaker 1 00:27:03 That is fabulous Maha. I know what immediate, when you said that, I, I decided I would try to see if maybe I couldn't pull my hand out. You, I was frightened for you for a second there, because, you know, if, if, if it was that easy to shift, you know, then you might find yourself trapped there and then you couldn't change that one. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:27:29 It would turn the experience really bad. So, so in a way that's really incredible. That's a deep example. And, and, but in a way, what it would say would be that there might be a level of cultivation where you could unify your expectation and your willpower so that you could be conscious at both levels of them. Yes. And then if you could do that in the dream, but, but, but don't, please don't do it with your hands, stuck in them all, you know, you might get stuck, you know, <laugh> but do it with something a little less dramatic <laugh>. But the point is, it seems that the AEPS are able to unify that in the waking state. And there's a famous story about the great, uh, scientists and Mendi. And eventually AEPT called Chandra KTI who lived in the seventh century. Nobody knows the exact dates, but it was pretty clearly the seventh century, 600.
Speaker 1 00:28:27 And he, he was walking in the courtyard of, um, or in the sort of large gallery of the big monastic university called LAN dah, very famous, where people were pursuing these kind of sciences, inner science, especially all the outer ones, too, like medicine and part and cetera about the inner ones, physics of certain types. But, um, inner science was considered the chief science of course, cause it's what really controls our life. And, um, he was with a student who was a little bit debating him and then he kind of bumped into a pillar, was in a, in a, you know, was a big old architecture. There are many pillars in the hall and he bumped into the pillar. So the student kind of said, well, you see the, the pillar's not really empty. You know, you don't really know that it's empty it something. Haha. And so he then turned and he waved his hand right through the pillar and he said, what pillar?
Speaker 1 00:29:26 So it's considered a famous story. And uh, of course Westerners discounted as just some superstition, you know, but uh, modern, so-called modern people. But, but um, this connects to what you are talking about beautifully in the sense that he was in the conventional expectation world, the consensus world. Yeah. And then he bumped into the of meat space talking to a student and he wasn't meditating and he wasn't in doing lucid dreaming. He was doing that. But he had a beta, the ability of unifying when he wanted to. Yep. And he didn't wanna go stack around walking through pills because then all the students would get all woo woo. You know, freaked out. And they wouldn't really work on where they were at. You know, they wouldn't really study where they were, where they wouldn't study the reality cuz they'd be thinking they could do. There was some gimmick where they could just jump into an artificial.
Speaker 1 00:30:20 So he was normally would've been doing that after class or whenever the student was in whatever context the student had encountered him. But then in order to demonstrate to the student that he has to go deeper, then go, haha, nobody can change the meet space where, you know what the computer computer people call meet space reality, not the virtual reality. He showed that to him. It could be a virtual reality and he was put his hand right through the, through the wall, through the pillar. So that's really, your story is really working in that zone. It's really, really interesting and doing it without formal, you're not being formally religious. You're not promoting belief systems, but, but you are showing the responsibility of people that their belief systems will impact their perceptions. Yeah. And that is the first important key step for people to learn, to take responsibility for what they do.
Speaker 1 00:31:18 You know, the one thing that, that, you know, and, and, and let me just share one thing with you. Uh, I know we're running late, but let me just share a little bit with you. This one thing, and that is that I personally am very worried about the climate and the planet, as I know you are. Yeah. But the consensus reality of the modern culture, not just Western, but modern, so called quote unquote modern or even postmodern culture is that at death, nothing happens. In other words, you go into nothing. And it, it is so false that the scientific materialist people make themselves into high priests by assuring everybody confirming this consensus reality. So on the level of our conversation that is confirming a mass expectation that no matter what they do, that's bad karma destructive to other animals, other people, other cultures, even the planet mm-hmm <affirmative>, there's no consequence because they just automatically become nothing.
Speaker 1 00:32:28 And they even express a fear of being nothing as if that was a bad thing, cuz they may, because maybe they're happy. Maybe they have a lot of money and they have physical pleasures, you know? So it would be, be terrible to be anesthetized when you're in pleasure. Yeah. But of course they also, they also have aches and pains. They bump into things, they have heartbreaks, they have trouble. Yeah. And, and so secretly nobody's afraid of nothing. <laugh> right. It's an insane person. Who's afraid of nothing. Right? So that means that this expectation, however, is blocking people from stepping up to the responsibility of doing with a little bit less of having a little less immediate pleasure for some longer term benefit of, of, of taking a little, hit themselves, to save some other person and, and to save the whole planet, like, you know, act like Berg tells us act like it is the emergency that it is, you know, and they don't wanna do that.
Speaker 1 00:33:33 But it's the underlying expectation that well death star that we created ourselves, like, you know, a star wars, death star, we're creating to destroy our life on our planet. But it never mind, everybody won't remember that they ever had a life and they'll all be nothing. So it'll all be good. Meanwhile, it's insane to think you can be nothing because nothing is not anything anybody can be because it's not there. There's no such place. It's not an empty dark space. That's not nothing. That's the space. Yeah. So there's no way you can guarantee yourself nothing and they're lying to themselves. Of course they're honestly saying, cuz they think that, but they're lying to themselves. But anybody had immediate moments notice knows that nothing is nothing. And no one has discovered it's not an empirical discovery that people become nothing. Right.
Speaker 3 00:34:30 Right. I, I hadn't thought it through that way, but it is. That is so true. Isn't it? And, and it begs the question, how do we, uh, we help to change this expectation or
Speaker 1 00:34:42 Exactly.
Speaker 3 00:34:43 I think many, many ways meditation can, can do that. Uh, in my case, it was, uh, was the, the notion of there are dreams and dreams are populated by ancestors and you can have conversations with them. And then at once bang, uh, that expectation will break and, and one will engage in a different way with, uh, with life and a more heart, heart based, uh,
Speaker 1 00:35:08 And a hard, right. But tradit traditionally, traditionally the ultimate way of realizing that there's no nothing is coming up in meditation or in life, that experience of nothing. And then, and then letting go into it and then not arriving anywhere <laugh> and then everything is bad and in a way, but on a simplistic level, yeah. Everybody has that every night when they go unconscious, right. And then they wake up again or they take sodium Penedol in the surgery and then they're back again. So in other words, nothing doesn't hold you and they, and, and the, and the level of viscerality with which you experience that teaches you the falseness of promising people that nothing will receive them. And, and it in a scientific, proper scientific method where you don't take dogmas as a outweighing experience on a common sense level, we can experience that. You can't find nothing and you don't, it's a MIS MIS expression, you know, so there's two levels, there's this. So, but the point is a great teacher like yourself, which you are doing through your book and, and you are going to, you are arising as the imagin <laugh>, which no, I mean, no, you should ha you will have a great influence. I believe I, cause I think your work is really great. I do. And, uh, therefore you will be able to get people to use laughter to realize that they ain't know nothing. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:36:49 Thank
Speaker 3 00:36:49 You. And, and if I can to, uh, uh, how dreams also can help with that. What's uh, once, uh, uh, I was in a, in, in a dream and again, I became Luci in the lucid state. I, uh, was looking around and I thought, oh, let me change some of the clouds. And I couldn't do that, which normally belongs to, uh, some possibility. Yes. And then, uh, I felt in the, in the dream and I felt my body and I, and I thought, gosh, uh, I'm so awake. This must be waking life. And then I just run down the Creek and, uh, which in itself should give me the clue that it was a dream. And I woke up from that. But, uh, what I learned there is that actually in this moment that we are asleep and usually we don't remember it. And it's so called nothing. Mm-hmm <affirmative> our mind is, uh, awake.
Speaker 1 00:37:47 Mm-hmm,
Speaker 3 00:37:48 <affirmative>, it's just not aware. I, I used a little bit, uh, uh, in my own definition, but your, your mind in the, in the dream state, your mind is just, is awake. You have all these experiences and you're just not aware one that it is a dream and the next morning you haven't remembered it, but there wasn't there wasn't nothing you have, you just haven't remembered it.
Speaker 1 00:38:14 Brilliant. Wonder's
Speaker 3 00:38:15 A whole different thing. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:38:16 That's really, really great. That is wonderful. Well,
Speaker 3 00:38:21 And, and everyone can test that for themselves so that, that will help them know.
Speaker 1 00:38:26 Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much mahi. Now, listen, I wanna do another podcast with you pretty soon. Even if you, you have time on your book, tour and everything. And when I have more time, I'm, I'm in the middle of fun travel and another travel and a bit of organizing something later in another travel, and I'm in a, in a sort of frazzling mood truly time period, just now. Uh, I'm, I'm, that's how I'm, I'm dreaming. And, uh, since I'm not lucid waking enough. So, uh, so, but I really, I have discovered you, uh, you know, mahi, what is mahi mean? What kind of name is that mahi and, and how am I pronouncing it right by the way.
Speaker 3 00:39:11 Yeah. Uh, that I'm surprised how well you pronounce it. It's a Dutch name. It has a Jewish origin. Uh, it has something to do. It's different meanings, but something, one with God or one with the universe or
Speaker 1 00:39:24 Is it does, it's not, it's not the name of an angel.
Speaker 3 00:39:27 Yeah. It's
Speaker 1 00:39:28 Mahi. I think it is.
Speaker 3 00:39:29 Yeah. Yeah. It's
Speaker 1 00:39:31 Wonderful. Mahi. That's wonderful mahi. Well, well, please be my angel in helping me learn to, to be more better on lucid dreaming, and I'm gonna study more carefully the book, and then we will meet again. And I really learned already a lot from you just talking now. And I hope to have another conversation very soon. If you have time, you know, so we'll, we'll talk through Beth and we'll find out, okay. So thank you so much. And everyone, this is mahi and he has this wonderful book. And please tell us your book. What's the name of the book and tell us
Speaker 3 00:40:04 It's it's, uh, title, dream guidance,
Speaker 1 00:40:07 How to get that dream guidance. It's a subtitle two. What's the subtitle.
Speaker 1 00:40:15 Okay. Wonderful. And listen, don't listen to some Buddhist who will tell you Buddhist don't have a soul. Of course there is a soul it's to the Buddhist. It means a very subtle continuum of the self, but not a fixated thing that just stays without changing, you know, like, like a rigid barcode or, you know, like a geometric thing that never changes. That's not, that's, what's rejected, but, but flowing super subtle, pure energy is so subtle that we kind, that people even don't detect it, you know, uh, not just it related to electricity and to wind and to energy, but it's very, very subtle and that's the soul, you know? So can you say the title again? I love it. Please say the full title, dream guidance through dream incubation. Ah, I didn't ask you about that incubation until next. We'll start with in dream incubation next time. Next, next time. Thank you so much. Okay. All the best. Thank you. You too. You too Mente. As they say, I don't know how to say that in Dutch. <laugh>
Speaker 0 00:41:32 What the best
Speaker 2 00:41:43 This episode of the Bob Thurman podcast was originally recorded from the home of Robert and Deni Thurman in Woodstock, New York, August, 2022. To watch the video version of this episode, please visit the Tibet house. Us men. The online YouTube channel. The Bob Thurman podcast is brought to you in part through the generous support of the Tibet house, us Menlo membership, community, and listeners like you to learn more about the benefits of Tibet house mend LA membership, please visit our
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