Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:14 Welcome to my Bob Thurman podcast. I'm so grateful some good friends enabled me to present them to you. If you enjoy them and find them useful, please think of becoming a member of Tibet House us to help preserve Tibetan culture. Tibet House is the Dai Lama's cultural center in America. All best wishes. Have a great day.
Speaker 2 00:00:48 This is episode 314, an interview with Lorna Burn.
Speaker 1 00:01:19 Uh, hello everybody. I, you are here on the Bob Thurman podcast. So I'm trying to podcast <laugh>. I'm actually at Men La Mountain Retreat in, um, in, in the middle of a retreat with people. And that's the Medicine Buddha, you see peeking out from behind a picture of this holiness sad Lama, who is the sort of teacher of the teaching that we are practicing in this retreat. And, uh, what a wonderful place with which to talk to Lorna about angels and about herself. Laura, this is a, her wonderful book is called Angels in My Hair. And, uh, it's an, it's her autobiography, A mo, and she is a modern day Irish mystic with the powers of the saints of Old. And Lorna physically sees and talks with angels every day and has done so ever since she was a baby. And I was so impressed reading the story, and also, Lorna Dear, I was, I was, I felt very deeply your hardships that you had, what a difficult time you did have, and you, and you really triumphed over all of the obstacles that were thrown your way and you helped so many people.
Speaker 1 00:02:39 It has really marvelous today, sick and wounded. People from all around the world are drawn to her for comfort and healing, and theologians of different faiths seek her guidance. Well, that's me. I'm, I'm a more a Buddha than a Theolo theologian, but I certainly need guidance and healing for sure. So, angels in My Hair is a moving and deeply inspirational chronicle of Lorna's remarkable life story. Invoking a wonderful sense of place. She describes growing a poor in Ireland and marrying the man of her dreams only to have faced, to have marriage cut short by tragedy and so on. And the book has been translated into 23 languages. And people from many walks of life have gotten hope from it and have realized that no matter how alone they might feel, they always have a guardian angel by their side. And I really think Lorna herself is a guardian angel. And I'm so thrilled to be speaking to you and honored Lorna. So how are
Speaker 4 00:03:41 You? I'm, I'm good. I'm good today. Um, I'm looking very much forward to talking to you and, and listening to all you're going to ask me and talk about. And to me that is, is wonderful. And of course my room is Paula Angels, but I know your room, where you are in at the retreat is Paul of Angels as well. I just love the garden angel. You know, seeing that light with everyone regardless of what they believe or even if they believe in nothing. Just seeing the garden angel with everyone, to me, gives hope to the world.
Speaker 1 00:04:21 Yes. Wonderful. You, I'm, I'm listening with pleasure to the Irish slide. I Irish accent <laugh>, the brogue, I guess you call it. Do you also speak lic, by the way? Do you know?
Speaker 4 00:04:34 Um, no. I, I don't. I I am, um, severely dyslexic.
Speaker 1 00:04:41 Uhhuh
Speaker 4 00:04:42 <affirmative>, you know, so it's, it's a miracle that I have done what God has asked me to do, you know? And like when I was a child, the angels used to say, you know, Lorne, you will write about God and us. And I just thought God was crazy how on Earth I couldn't even write my name. How on earth did he expect me to even write one book? Yes. And so I, I did it, and, and they said it would become bestseller around the world. So all of that happened, and I suppose part of the message is, you know, to have faith. It doesn't matter what beliefs you have, you're you're never alone. And, and that you have this incredible soul, you know, that spark of life, which I know you know all about anyway, you know,
Speaker 1 00:05:35 I don't really, I'm still looking for mine and seeking to shape it into a better and better place always. And, uh, but I know there is, I have one, yes, I do know that. And, uh, that's kind of actually an amazing thing in the sense that Buddhists have this mistaken idea that they don't have a soul because it was popularized this famous teaching of the Buddha of literally called selflessness. It means soullessness. But they, what they don't know is that Buddha is very firm, that people come from somewhere before they're born and they go somewhere after they die. And if you don't have a soul, meaning you could call it to be technical, super subtle mental continuum, sometimes they will make language like that. Then there's nothing to go in a future life or come from a previous life, and you end up, that's the material is a stupid thing that you become nothing, you know, and that everything therefore, ultimately is nothing, which makes them also depressed.
Speaker 1 00:06:38 You know, so many people that you have saved and healed and encouraged and been so kind to it. That just the little taste I've had from the, from from your book is, is, uh, uh, uh, you are saving them from this deadly materialist culture, which it really is deadly. I think, you know, the suicide epidemic, for example, of young kids in America is enormous. I don't know if you know the statistics, but it's, it's larger than heart attacks and, uh, diabetes and other, you know, fatalities, in other words, of the other famous killers from the bad food and the bad lifestyle. But, but suicide is huge now. And, um, in the military also and so on, it's terrible. And this has all has to do with them thinking wrongly, that they can safely become anesthetized <laugh> just by dying <laugh>, which is elderly, idiotic, actually, really, it's supposed to be high science, but it's actually idiotic.
Speaker 1 00:07:36 You know, I, you know, Lorna, for years I had, um, discussions with scientists, hard, hard scientists, and they would always ask me, what's the proof of former and future life? And, uh, you know, thinking I'm just a religious, uh, superstitious weirdo. Do you know how they are? And, uh, I would, there's a lot of evidence, of course, of people remembering previous lives and so on. Not to mention, you know, you don't have to cite religious scripture because they won't listen to that, but there's a lot of actual evidence. But then they say, oh, that's anecdotal. That doesn't mean anything, you know? And, and then I felt, you know, what can you do? Then you get stuck. But lately, I've been very happy by asking them, instead the question that you people say, you only go by what you experience and discover, or you don't go by dogmas and theories. So could we ask you who got the Nobel Peace Prize for discovering nothing, <laugh>?
Speaker 4 00:08:31 Well, I don't think anyone got the Nobel Peace, peace Prize for that ever.
Speaker 1 00:08:37 Not nobody will ever discover nothing, is not there.
Speaker 4 00:08:43 No, I, I always remember, um, some scientists saying to me, Lorna, if a scientist ever says to you something is impossible, then they're not a, a scientist because everything is possible. Exactly. Um, you know, and, and I love that. And I know many of them have read my book as well, and, and they have said, you know, we believe Lorna, but we can't say anything because it would take our credibility away. And I think that's very, very sad. Yes. You know, in that, in that way. And sometimes that even happens in different faiths, you know? Yes. They, they won't say much, but all, as I can say to the world, I, I know it will happen for everyone I know. It's, it's part of evolution. You do have a soul, and it doesn't matter whether you believe it or not, because you do. Exactly. That's the only way I can put it.
Speaker 4 00:09:37 You do. Exactly. Because because I see the gardening door with everyone. If I walked down the street and saw someone with no gardening job, I would be devastated. Yes. And I have traveled all over the world, and I have never seen anyone without a arch angel. It's the gatekeeper of your soul. Yes. You know, and it's job mainly, I suppose, is to protect the soul. But when the human body dies, yes. You go to a place Yes. You know, you're, you're free. And anytime time, I have seen the soul of someone, like if I was in the room with you physically, there's a possibility that your soul would come forward. I would say a certain amount. Yes. You know, in that way. And I'd love seeing that when that happens. So yes, I, I think that has given great hope to people around the world, and even knowing that you know that your loved one is not dead, you're going to meet all of those you knew and loved when your time comes.
Speaker 4 00:10:54 Yes. And I I just say by, wait until the human body dies to realize what's true. Yes. You know, start to believe it now and, and start to open your eyes to see, not to luck, we have forgotten how to see. Yes. We only luck at everything, and we're only all convinced about the material things. And it's so sad to hear, um, in America, suicide is so high. Oh, it's terrible. That that is, that's a terrible shock. And and I would often meet, especially young men and teenagers. Yes. And I'm always shocked at that. And they would say, the red angels in my hair, and that has changed their mind. Yes. They were thinking of suicide, you know, sometimes they would show me where they actually tried it. I know. And they just said, I don't know what they see in the book. It's whatever message they receive from it, um, and what way it touches them.
Speaker 4 00:11:59 But they would say, it gave me hope. Now I realize I'm not alone and I have a purpose in life. I have this beautiful soul. And it's lovely to hear them say, then I don't want to die. I want to live life. Yes. You know, I, I want to experience it no matter what kind of ups and downs and Yes. We need, we need more love and hope and peace and forgiveness Yes. In the world. Yes. You know, we, we need more of that. And you have to love you. I hope you love you as well. Yes. The more you love yourself. Yes. And the more you love others. Yes. You know,
Speaker 1 00:12:42 That's
Speaker 4 00:12:43 True. The more you love your family and friends and stranger.
Speaker 1 00:12:46 Yes. Yes. I have a hard time with that myself because when I, I grew up in New York City and most of the time in the summer, sometimes in the south. Um, but, um, where I had to pretend I wasn't a, a a, what they call a damn Yankee <laugh>,
Speaker 1 00:13:04 Cuz otherwise the other boys would beat me and my brothers up and I had to fe a southern accent and so to be there. But anyway, I grew up there and, uh, I always felt that I was in a strange world and, uh, I didn't feel at home. You know, I love those books like by, um, those Scottish writers and the people Raphael Sabatini, I remember where someone, you know, has a, turns out to be from another culture. You know, they turn out to be a, a a a lost prince or an orphan. You know, there, there's a lot of novels like that. It's like childhood's, novels. And I really liked those. Although I liked my, I love my parents, except when they had emotional tantrums or things. But, um, I did. And my brother, I loved my brothers, but, um, I just felt that everyone was sort of making emotions out of things they didn't need to. And then I have, therefore, I have a sense, my, my wonderful wife of 56 years, uh, luckily cuz I had an attitude that I have a, I had an unhappy childhood feeling lost. And then my wife pointed out that in all little bit of pictures that exist, you know, the only one in the whole family that's smiling is me.
Speaker 4 00:14:18 <laugh>. Well, I, I think that is very beautiful, beautiful. That you were, you were smiling.
Speaker 1 00:14:26 I've been, I think I've been very blessed and lucky, but actually I don't really know my guardian angel, but I'm, you definitely know I have one because I've been very reckless sometimes when I was younger, very careless. And I, I was a bit accident prone, but, so I'd love it. Do you see my guardian angel? Do you know? But can you see that through maybe the internet?
Speaker 4 00:14:46 Well, I would love to be able to see your guardian angel, but I have to be honest, I can't. But I know it's there. I can't see it on screen. That very seldom happens. It's only on very rare occasions. But go and ask your name, your guardian angel boss's name, you know, don't be doubting anymore. You know, what have you got to lose?
Speaker 1 00:15:09 I didn't doubt that there's someone there, but I don't know who from before now I, I met a lot of Buddhist guardian angels and I have a very good relationship with them all, I think. But the one who's been sitting on the shoulder from beginning, maybe from previous life, I'm not just sure which one is really, has, has the difficult job of taking care of Bob Turman. I'm not really sure.
Speaker 4 00:15:32 <laugh>. Well, I, I, I suppose to, to say to you the, your garden angel isn't the soul of the loved one because your soul and everyone else's soul is billions of times more than any angel possibly ever could be. Oh,
Speaker 1 00:15:49 Wonderful.
Speaker 4 00:15:50 You, we as human beings and religion have such angels on pedestals, but we, they have us on pedestal stools so high that it's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 00:16:02 That is certain highest
Speaker 4 00:16:04 And your angel, you know, it's, it never leaves you for a second.
Speaker 1 00:16:09 Yes.
Speaker 4 00:16:09 You know, never for a second. So no matter what you're doing, your guardian named Joel has been with you. I always remember this little girl coming to a book signing with her mom. And seemingly I was doing the book signing in a Catholic shop Uhhuh, which I never noticed. Uhhuh <affirmative>, you know, um, I never noticed that. Yes. And this little girl and her mom were of another faith.
Speaker 1 00:16:34 Yes.
Speaker 4 00:16:35 And um, I just remember when she came up to the desk, you know, where I was signing them, she said, will you please tell my mom that my dad's garden was with them?
Speaker 1 00:16:47 I see.
Speaker 4 00:16:47 I looked at her and, and at the mom and when I looked up, I saw the soul of her dad standing between them.
Speaker 1 00:16:56 Oh, is see,
Speaker 4 00:16:57 You know. And I just said to her, you know, your dad loves you and is very proud of you. And of course he wasn't alone. And I looked at the mom, I said, his garden angel was there with them. And the mom just started crying because she said, but we thought he was alone. And I said, no, he wasn't his guard angel was there. It was in a war zone or something where he was killed, you know.
Speaker 1 00:17:25 Oh dear. Yes.
Speaker 4 00:17:27 Um, but the little girl was so happy to confirm with her mom Yes. That her dad, angel was with him and her dad didn't die alone.
Speaker 1 00:17:37 Yes. Amazing. You know, I was very impressed with one story, and maybe you could tell us a little more about it in your book, where this one businessman came to you and he was very unhappy cuz he'd been very harmful to people. His success had been built on abuse of some, obviously some people he didn't tell you what it was or you didn't repeat it anyway. And then he sort of, at one point he laid his head on the table and then you saw a kind of really demonic kind of entity that was a side of him or something. Or had had more or less dominated him and crushed his soul and had him do that or something like that. Can you tell us a little more of that
Speaker 4 00:18:20 Incident? Yeah, that
Speaker 1 00:18:22 Was very amazing. I thought. Wonderful.
Speaker 4 00:18:25 Yeah. That, that was a man that I haven't even written angels in my hair. Like nobody knew Then this, the strange thing is that God had strangers knock on my door. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and they would just say, hello and can we use the bathroom? Or, or they might say they're lost
Speaker 1 00:18:45 <laugh>,
Speaker 4 00:18:46 You know, and we didn't have much. So, you know, you'd offered them a cup of tea and this man just like sat down at the table and he just started to talk
Speaker 1 00:19:00 Uhhuh <affirmative>, you
Speaker 4 00:19:01 Know, and, and he told me of his life story of how, how, you know, evil. He was, you know, and he didn't want to be that, that way anymore.
Speaker 1 00:19:12 Uhhuh <affirmative>. And
Speaker 4 00:19:15 I just, just, when, when he kind of put his head down, I always say, um, I don't like saying it, but I, I would say everything always shows itself to me.
Speaker 1 00:19:28 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 4 00:19:29 You know, um, and that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 1 00:19:33 Uhhuh, <affirmative>,
Speaker 4 00:19:34 You know, and it, it lucked up at me and twisted and turned and I just said for it to be gone and to go and it left.
Speaker 1 00:19:44 Oh, good. And
Speaker 4 00:19:45 I said, for it to go back to where it came from.
Speaker 1 00:19:48 Yes. You
Speaker 4 00:19:49 Know, um, so it can never come back to another human being in any way or anything.
Speaker 1 00:19:56 Oh,
Speaker 4 00:19:56 Good. And um, I remember, I don't know how long afterwards I met that man again or he came again. Yes. And, um, his life had completely changed.
Speaker 1 00:20:08 Wonderful.
Speaker 4 00:20:09 He, he was no longer that, what would you say? I don't want to say bad person because sometimes we get so caught up with material things Yes. That we think they're the most important.
Speaker 1 00:20:21 Yes.
Speaker 4 00:20:21 And we stand on others, we crush them, we destroy them. We, we lose empathy and we lose love. And that's, but that man had lost, but he gained it back. Yes. And I always say there's always hope.
Speaker 1 00:20:37 Of course. Wonderful. You were so wonderful. Did you have, have you, did you have many other experiences like that? Of like sort of a bad side of someone? You're a being able to sort of invite them to take a hike <laugh>, where you had a visual, like that was so visual the way you described it? I really could see a sort of sneering sort of hardened, cruel face riot out of his side of his head sort of type of thing. It's like an it,
Speaker 4 00:21:06 It's hard to describe it, you know, it just, it, they, it always comes forward, you know, and, and comes out and really turns and just looks at me and my words to it without saying them out loud. Cause you didn't want to upset the man was, you know, I know you, I knew you were there all the time, you know? Yes. In that, in that way. And I usually don't like to talk about that part, you know? Yes. So I always try to avoid it. And of course, if, if I was sitting in a restaurant or somewhere else, yes. If anyone was, I don't like using the word possessed, but if anybody was, it would show itself.
Speaker 1 00:21:59 Yes.
Speaker 4 00:21:59 And I wouldn't even have to go over near the person or be sitting with them mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I would just tell it to go to be gone.
Speaker 1 00:22:08 Yes, bro.
Speaker 4 00:22:09 And, and it leaves.
Speaker 1 00:22:10 That's wonderful. Well, that's, that's, and you have arch Archel Michael working with you. With you. That's amazing. I think he's a wonderful, he, he, what is he known for generally in the church? Michael? He's a, I think,
Speaker 4 00:22:25 I think in the Catholic church, he's mainly known for, you know, to be the protector of, you know, of mankind, to keep people down, to keep what I see called devil the devil, or you know,
Speaker 1 00:22:38 Like a guardian. A guardian of mankind. Yeah. Right. And he, so he, he has defeated, you know, what, you know, in the Milton story where Lucifer was, um, uh, rebelled against God because he was jealous of the powers granted to the humans, the power of naming and so on. And, uh, so he then rebelled. But actually he was himself originally an angel. Right. And he then turned bad. And then Michael was very instrumental in defeating him when he tried to rebel. Right. With his other, other angels who followed him like a factional thing among the angels. Right. And is there, is there a future thing where, where finally like the last judgment, you know, the way it's taught in the church? I never liked it as a child, I will confess, you know, I was, I was, um, I was baptized as a Presbyterian, although my mother said I made a fuss during the baptism,
Speaker 4 00:23:35 <laugh> <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:23:37 And I knocked over the little, the vessel. You know, pr Protestant churches are, have very poor ritual, you know, compared to Catholic. And they just have a, a dish on the, on the altar where you get some water sprinkled at you. And, but I apparently knocked it over and drenched the priest and he was offended. But ev apparently I got a few drops anyway, so, but, uh, and, uh, so I didn't like the idea that Jesus loved everybody, which I liked mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But that then somehow it ended up that some people were eternally doomed. I thought that was a completely wrong attribution to God. I thought that's a really wrong, that was invented by some rulers who wanted to scare people, that they throw them in the dungeons and torture them. So then they pretended God behaved like that. And I, I don't think God behaves like that. I, I personally didn't agree.
Speaker 4 00:24:27 No, no. God, God, how what way will I say this? Um, I would always say to proud of people, listen to my words. It's the only time I say this, listen to my words. And that is, God has never shown me him sending anyone to that place. Good. You call hell, you know,
Speaker 1 00:24:53 I'm so grateful that you were, uh, alek and you didn't get brainwashed. Therefore, no,
Speaker 4 00:24:59 I didn't, I
Speaker 1 00:25:00 Didn't
Speaker 4 00:25:00 Get
Speaker 1 00:25:00 Interview brainwashed. Have your, you know, we call that in the, in the Indian and tradition, we call that the third eye. It's, and it's depicted in some iconography as an eye in the center of the forehead that you can see through things, you know, and you see the subtle things. And naturally your mind doesn't only get tied down, but black and white, you know, like do by simple dualism, you know? And, uh, and that's wonderful. It's so grateful that you survived through all of your ordeals. And you can see this, you know? Do you think, so then, then the final the final story, you know, is there a final thing that the angels say where even Lucifer can be redeemed and he can somehow be happy and not, not call lead people astray and so on. You know, there would, there would be like an, like a, like a reverse Milton or something, you know, a, a reverse paradise loss. Is there, is there any notion like that is, do you have
Speaker 4 00:26:00 Okay. Um, I, I'll tell you as much as I can because I don't watch what set everybody <laugh>. Um, so I've tried to be careful in that way. Yes. But God loves all his children. Yes. No matter of our differences. Yes. Okay. No matter whether you're good or bad. Yes. In human eyes. Yes. And, and lots of people do wrong things because they're hurt. Yes. You know? And, and if there's a war, like I've often told the story where I've met, especially men, where there has been a war in their country. Yes. And they saw their family being killed and murdered. And they said, we went and done the same thing for revenge. How do you say revenge. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:26:49 Sure. Right.
Speaker 4 00:26:50 So we, we need to show more love and compassion.
Speaker 1 00:26:54 Yes.
Speaker 4 00:26:55 But you know, you say, is there any redemption for, for, you know, Satan, you know, and yes, God loves him. Where do you think he is now? <laugh>. That's as close as I go. You, you know, in your heart. And, you know, you can't, you can't count contaminate the human soul again. You can't put a stain on it because your soul is that spark of light of God. You can't contaminate God.
Speaker 1 00:27:26 Yes, yes.
Speaker 4 00:27:28 You know, you can't, you can't do that. It's only the human part of us that do the wrong things. Yes. And we can change.
Speaker 1 00:27:36 Yes.
Speaker 4 00:27:38 I suppose God, God has me doing this because it's part of evolution. I call it the intertwining of the body and soul.
Speaker 1 00:27:46 Yes.
Speaker 4 00:27:46 Still coming together and becoming born. Yes. Imagine you not getting sick or growing old anymore.
Speaker 1 00:27:52 Yes. Yes.
Speaker 4 00:27:53 You know? Um, imagine a world where, um, children cross the river without a bridge.
Speaker 1 00:28:01 Yes.
Speaker 4 00:28:02 School is not the same, where we're all, all, all one. And our planet has been reborn again.
Speaker 1 00:28:10 Yes.
Speaker 4 00:28:11 You know, and I know that will happen. That has to be why God has me doing this, because I'm severely dyslexic. Yeah. Why? If you talk to me when I'm writing my name, I can't do it.
Speaker 1 00:28:24 Oh my
Speaker 4 00:28:25 Goodness. I, I don't read books. Um, I do talk into the computer to print out, but then others have to come and up, you know, and say, LOR, you're
Speaker 1 00:28:36 Lucky editors. Cause
Speaker 4 00:28:38 Your book is backwards.
Speaker 1 00:28:39 The book is very well written. You have very good editors. I'm sure your original eloquence flows out very, very well to it.
Speaker 4 00:28:46 Not, not, not too bad. Um, so people would ask me, you know, they would say, well, what about Hitler and very bad people, they must be gone to hell. And all this I can say is God loves them. If they they're gone to heaven. Yes. You know, gone. They're gone. There. If, if I was bringing a million people up top of a mountain to save them Yes. And the worst person in the world fell behind, I'd have to go back for them. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:29:19 Because
Speaker 4 00:29:19 I love them. It wouldn't
Speaker 1 00:29:20 Matter.
Speaker 4 00:29:21 Wonderful. What they have done.
Speaker 1 00:29:23 That's wonderful. Wonderful. Yeah. We call that in the, in the Tibetan tradition. We call that a <unk>, you know, a <unk> a hero or a heroin, or, or actually I love the word shero. I have a friend who has helped a lot of girls in Somalia and Kenya who in refugee camps, getting them edu helping them get educated and things. And she has a term for them. She still calls them sheroes. Sheroes, you know, instead of heroes, <laugh>. So rather than heroin, which it sort of adds a thing in, it has a, you know, then there's that, the, the drug is a heroin, you know, so, so anyway, shero. I love that word. You know, and actually the shero contains hero because h e r o is in there. But even you, I'm sorry, I know you're dyslexic, but shero. So you are real, truly a shiro for love and compassion.
Speaker 1 00:30:16 That's what enlightenment. It means, you know, love and compassion for all beings. The wisdom to have love and compassion for everything. And I was gonna ask you, because I'm unhappy, I kind of liked Putin at the beginning because I was a little annoyed with w Bush, the young bush, when his invasion of invasion of Iraq. I thought that was really, really bad news. And actually I thought, you know, Al Gore would've been an environmental president because he wrote that wonderful book about the environment before the Inconvenient Truth. He, he had written that as a senator, and, uh, he would, uh, he would've immediately tried to change and bring the oil industry to heal instead of continuing to ruin the planet, you know? And, uh, then said w was a pawn of the oil industry, and he went off and attacked Iraq. And I was terrible.
Speaker 1 00:31:09 So I was mad at him. And then he met Putin, and then I preferred Putin. You know, I was thinking Putin would be, remember w said he looked into Putin's eyes and saw his soul, and he thought he'd be okay. And I was saying, well, Putin, I don't know if you thought you were okay. I don't, I don't know him. But I was just thinking that, and then now Putin has become so crazed and really demonic attacking uselessly. Neither the Russians nor the Ukrainians want to have this war. It's just that one guy has the power to make them do it. And that's really wrong. I think, you know, but I wanna know that there's hope for him. What can well there, what can we pray? How can we pray that he might have a change of heart? Is it possible, do you think I'm so upset by the terrible things going on there.
Speaker 4 00:31:57 It, it is possible. I, I do ask people to pray for the leaders of the world, and I'd ask them to pray for Putin that he will get compassion in his heart. You know? Yes. Um, but you have to, you have to love him to, no matter what he's done, you have to love him to Yes. Because how would I say, all his anger and frustration is, is inside of home because of what has happened in his life and, and the way he has looked on how the world destroyed his family and his friends, you know? Yes. So we, we have to, in a sense, embrace them with love and send that love and, and pray and ask, and, and we have to pray and ask for the Ukraines, you know, they, they, they show so much compassion and forgiveness. Yes. We have seen them help the Russian soldiers so many times. Yes. Um, but we have to pray for the rest of the world as well. All the leaders in the rest of the world. I'm afraid to not to be thinking everything is about, you know, material things and money, because it's not
Speaker 1 00:33:11 Yes, yes.
Speaker 4 00:33:11 You know, it's, it's about each other.
Speaker 1 00:33:14 You write very eloquently and, and beautifully about how the, the, the troubles in Northern Ireland were ended. And I think I, when I was reading it, I was thinking, well, Lorna was praying for them all, and it did help. I'm sure. I'm sure. Well,
Speaker 4 00:33:32 I'm, I'm still praying for Northern Ireland because one thing that Angel Elijah had said was that, you know, even though peace had come, because I never thought it would be in my lifetime. Yes. You know, that that would happen. Yes. But when it came, he, he said, you know, it's on a tread, and I can see that it's on a tread.
Speaker 1 00:33:56 Oh, on the tread.
Speaker 4 00:33:57 He broke easily, easily. And I see that now because of Brexit and because of everything that's happening. Yes. So I'm, I'm praying for peace to stay in Northern Ireland, and I've done an event up in Belfast and Yes. Weekend. And I asked the people, you know, to please keep peace.
Speaker 1 00:34:19 Yes.
Speaker 4 00:34:19 You know, to have love and compassion. Yes. Don't go back to, to the way it was before, because that was prolific.
Speaker 1 00:34:27 Yes. Really. It's ridiculous. It never has any positive result. That's that's absolutely true. Good for you. So you went up there. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. I never been there. I only, I've never, I only once briefly was in Ireland in the western part, uh, near the Blarney Stone <laugh>. But some plane had to land there with it, you know, and then I never have had time. I, you know, I've been a poor professor myself, you know, in the way it is in America that, um, uh, the, the academic people, the, the teachers, you know, the, of course it's even worse at the lo at the childhood level and at the high school level. They're so unrespected and, and poorly paid. And it's really quite awful. All the lawyers and the doctors and the politicians and the businessmen make all the money. And then the teachers are considered nobody, you know? And it's become so stupid like that because of materialism and maybe the economists that can get a decent salary. So I know a little bit about being debt and so forth. It's really terrible. I was very sympathetic. Poor Joe. You were poor Joe. What, what he had to go through and what you had to go through. Really. Although he was so lucky to be with you, though. Really <laugh>, have his angels encouraged. And, and how are your children now? Are they happy? Are they, where are they?
Speaker 4 00:35:48 They, they're all happy and, and they're all working hard and being loving and, and caring for their, their children. And of course they've been helping their mom. That's me. Or I wouldn't be
Speaker 1 00:36:02 Gotlin. There is that room. Are you
Speaker 4 00:36:04 In your room? Yeah, they're, they're all, they're all in Ireland, except one at the moment is over in New York, because she's studying law.
Speaker 1 00:36:12 Oh, I see.
Speaker 4 00:36:13 So, and, and she's doing it on human rights.
Speaker 1 00:36:19 Oh, good. For her. That's,
Speaker 4 00:36:20 That's very important. Yes. And, but I, I definitely think we have to change, you know, and the world is afraid of change and we shouldn't be, you know, we just need to pray and ask God and all of the angels and even the souls of our loved ones to help the leaders of the world, because they don't seem to be able to make decisions. I mean, more, they're kind of focused so much on, on material things instead of helping the people of each country. You know, one thing I was shown out the future, so I believe we will get there when, when every country, it's like all the whole world comes together, but every country grows its own food. And one thing I loved was that, that, you know, just, just say, Ireland had great crops this year, you know, absolutely great crops. Oh, good. And, and you give it free to a country that's having difficulties. Yeah. So there's no hunger anymore. There's
Speaker 1 00:37:27 Yes.
Speaker 4 00:37:28 And everybody is so, so much happier.
Speaker 1 00:37:32 Of course. That's really wonderful. Yes. I saw a movie about some people from precisely Northern Ireland who've heard about some really terrible, just at the end of the communism, you know, had some terrible orphanages in Romania, and they all drove down in big trucks and with food and with this and that. And they completely fixed up those places. And they even found some corruption where the rule runners were using the, were trying to sell the stuff and not give it to the children. And they went to the government in book arrest. And they, they put a block to that. And they, and, and they did it all completely freely and voluntarily, drove huge semi trucks. They drove all, I guess they went on a ferry in those days from, uh, from Ireland to u to the continent. And they went over that. And I was really impressed by them. I don't know if they were Catholic or Protestant, or maybe both. I have no, I don't.
Speaker 4 00:38:27 It doesn't, it doesn't matter. Yeah. It doesn't matter what you are, it's to reach out, you know, know and be kind to help the stranger. You don't have to know them. You don't even need to know whether they're good or bad, you know, in your eyes or, or what's the differences between, between you. But at this time of the year, between November and well into January, it's, it's like as if the veil between heaven and earth is just that little bit thinner. And it gives us the opportunity to show kindness. Yes. Without anyone laughing at you or say, you know, you're, you're away with the fairies in that, in that way. Like someone can, you know, give, give her a free heart and expect nothing back in return. I think that is so important.
Speaker 1 00:39:19 Yes. Oh, you are so wonderful, Lauren. I'm so touched and honored. I talked to you really, by the way, do you, you have in the back of the book, you have a method of how to contact angels. Right. And I was wondering, do you, do you have a sometimes lead a meditation for people through that kind of 10 principles? So you have the 12 steps, actually, and, um, to meet the guardian angel. And do you sometimes lead a meditation for like 20?
Speaker 4 00:39:49 Yeah, I, I, I do meditations and that, and I think we've put them on YouTube. We, I do a lot of free stuff that people don't have to pay for as much as possible. Yes. Um, so I do, I do me That's wonderful. And I leave him do prayer.
Speaker 1 00:40:06 Did you ever, did you ever meet the D Lama?
Speaker 4 00:40:09 No, no, no. I didn't.
Speaker 1 00:40:11 Ireland.
Speaker 4 00:40:12 Well, if he wants to come to Ireland to visit us, and you'll come as well. I'm,
Speaker 1 00:40:17 He doesn't
Speaker 4 00:40:18 Really for
Speaker 1 00:40:18 Life. He's 87, turning 88 now. And he doesn't necessarily want to travel much, I think now. But he did go to the northern island during the, the end of the troubles. And he, he'd struck up a relationship with this one guy who was in a wheelchair. His legs had been blown off or something, but he didn't want revenge. And he was wanting to, I think he was on the Catholic side. And he, he had dialogues with people there, and he was very touched by their, those who were ready to stop the troubles, you know, stop the violence. Yeah. And he enjoyed it really very much. Often he's want, he wanted to go to Sarajevo when there was a terrible shooting from the Serbians and so forth going on with the Bosnians, remember? And he wanted to go there, but then the, the UN was willing to let him go to try to talk to people, but then the Chinese wouldn't let it, you know, they, they, they used their power in the UN to prevent it.
Speaker 1 00:41:13 Cause they always wanted to make out like he's a bad guy instead of a white guy. But, uh, I'm just wondering because he would love you. I know. He would be So, he loves Jesus, he loves Christianity, and he has a, he has a plan for the world that people should really try to see that all the, the other religions can lead to the same good place of, of love and compassion and wisdom. And, um, they can learn things also from each other, but they should always keep it. He, in fact, he sometimes scolds me. Um, he says that because I am, I like to be, uh, Tibetan, Buddhas or Indian and Tibetan Buddhist. Uh, but, and he says, your grandmother wasn't a Buddhist and everyone should their grandmother's religion, that's his idea. And he's talked to three popes about that. And, and Muslim leaders in India, he's not been able to speak to them in Arabia or Egypt because Chinese or has blocked.
Speaker 1 00:42:10 But he's spoken to him in India. And of course, any other kind of Hindu or anybody. And the idea is that at this time in history, people should learn to trust each other's religions. For the other people. They should keep their own, but then, and learn as much as they can about spirituality from anybody. But they should trust other people that their religions can carry them. So they don't need to convert them. And they, because that the dangerous competition he feels and everywhere in the, in every city in the world are now mixed. You know, there's not like they're one country is one religion. They're all mixed up. They're, they're synagogues and temples and mosques and churches and every, and every city, like in two blocks away from each other. So if people feel the other one has somehow got something wrong, it's really not a good nice. It's not nice.
Speaker 4 00:43:00 Well, I, I, I agree with them because that's one of the futures I was shown as well, that all religions come under the one umbrella. But, you know, when I give talks in different countries, sometimes there might be only six Catholics at it.
Speaker 1 00:43:16 Yes.
Speaker 4 00:43:16 And the rest are, you know, they could be Muslim, they could be Jewish, they could be all of their MO or Budds as well, you know.
Speaker 1 00:43:26 Yes. But you see their angels. Do you still see their angels? Right. And you still,
Speaker 4 00:43:30 Oh God, yes, of
Speaker 1 00:43:31 Course you do. And so you know that God cares about them, whether they believe in him or not. So, so why be feel that there's some sort of unhuman thing, which happens when people get extremists and exclusive about religion. And uh, that's wonderful that you see that. I think that's great. After all the Quran, right? It was <inaudible>, I think. Yeah. Gabriel who transmitted the, the things of the Quran to, uh, to, uh, heaven. And he was just trying to be an, a good Jewish boy, you know, <laugh>. And after all, Jesus was a good Jewish boy, was
Speaker 4 00:44:05 Jewish. I know. And, and people find Catholics find that very hard to believe that, that Jesus was
Speaker 1 00:44:13 Jewish. Some of my colleagues in academic religious studies, they call Rabbi Jesus, they call it like they do. And, uh, and, uh, I just, I love Jesus. And I, I, you know, I, I like Mohamed too very much. And, uh, there, you know, some lyric, some one Muslim theologian who I really like, he has this wonderful thing of be able to a little bit use his, in his wisdom about some things. Because, you know, when Mohamed was teaching in Mecca before they started persecuting him, he just no compulsion in religion, love and joy. And isn't it, aren't we blessed by Ally? You know? But then when he had to run away to Medina, cuz they wanted to kill him, the guys who operated the pilgrimage business because they thought he was interfering with it. And then, you know, by getting rid of the Goddess Temples, you know. So then he went to, uh, to um, uh, Medina, and then they started attacking him all the time, and his friends were killed. So then he got a little, sometimes I think he, he would get a little irritated and he would say something a little about how to, about how you'd have to defend yourself. And then they use that as, excuse some more fanatic ones nowadays to do these horrible things to like isis, which is an exception in the, mostly the Muslims are pretty peaceful and nice. They are,
Speaker 4 00:45:32 They, they're lovely people. I have met many imams and they'll come to talk to me Oh, wonderful. All, all the time. Like, and the same with them, you know, rabbis and all, all of that. But I, I would love to, to meet the D Lama. I've never been invited. I wanna
Speaker 1 00:45:52 Invite you, I have a fantasy, uh, Lorna, that, that, uh, I happen to, for some strange reason. I'm a friend also of the patriarch of Istanbul, who is the head of Eastern Orthodox, although he's complains to me because I'm not, I'm not in his parish, you know, so he feels free to complain to me. And, and the few times we've chatted, he's complained to me that people think he's liked the Pope and has power over the bishops. What he says in his case, the other patriarchs in Serbia, Moscow and America particularly, those three, they don't listen to him. And if he says something they don't like, they, they threaten to secede from the church. <laugh>,
Speaker 4 00:46:34 What's his name?
Speaker 1 00:46:37 Baru the Arch Baru. And the reason I mentioned him, he's a wonderful guy. We exchanged rosaries and things we did. I gave him a, a zen rosary actually, but no, it's Abe one, but, and he gave me one of his rosaries. It was so nice and, uh, really wonderful. And anyway, there's an island in the Darnell, you know, on the, this side, on the Aian side of the Basra that belongs to the Orthodox Church, which for years was taken away by the Turkish government and they had lawsuits for decades. And finally they got it back and used to have a famous seminary there for, you know, ministers in the Orthodox Church, but he doesn't wanna make it into a seminary. He wants it to be a world religion dialogue center. And he tried to invite the Al Lama, uh, but the Turkish government wouldn't give a visa because China said, no, no, no.
Speaker 1 00:47:29 So anyway, it hasn't happened yet, but he wants to have meeting there of, of leaders of the different churches. And you know, I love Pope Francis because when he wrote La Dato say, you know, and I know you don't read, so I'm sorry, I don't mean Yeah. Don't need to read. You have the angels reading for you. But anyway, he wrote in that book, he said, he said how the, the, the petroleum industry, I call them the petro paths, you know, petroleum psychopaths or petroleum psychopaths, yeah. So I call 'em for short petro paths. So he wrote how they're climate criminals and how, but then what, and he said, it's a real sin to destroy God's earth. And all this, you know, he wrote in that, in that book, in that encyclical. And he, but what I really loved is he said that I following the example of his holiness patriarch Baru, who in the Declaration of Patmos in the 1990s, I think, who said that he went to Patmos where Revelation was written. Right. And, um, he scripture and he said, it's a sin, a a very serious sin to pollute God's earth. That God is not having to make a new earth for the new Jerusalem. You know, after the second coming, God wants this one to be cleaned up and t treated careful. Yes. And lovingly. And, um, and he gave credit to Baru for leading the way. And, you know, the two of the Byzantine and the Roman have been debating for 1300 years, <laugh>.
Speaker 4 00:49:01 I, I,
Speaker 1 00:49:02 He was so generous. He said, oh, I'm following Baru in this, you know, I was really moved by him. I don't know if you, did you ever meet him? I want to meet him, but I never did.
Speaker 4 00:49:12 No, I I have never met him. I, I have met, um, different bishops at different times. Right. You know, um, and some priests, but I get negative from the Catholic church as well, but I get positive as well. It's like, as if they're split.
Speaker 1 00:49:30 Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:49:31 And when Angels in my hair came out, um, gradually the Pope started to talk about the guardian angel and the soul. And, and now at the moment I heard him saying on the tv, you know, the, the light of the soul. He, he mentioned the, sorry, I'm a bit horse now, that the soul was light, you know, and was God. And, and that we should listen to the guidance of our guardian angel, because your guardian angel is a gift from
Speaker 1 00:49:59 God. Oh good. Oh, did he say something positive? You mean me?
Speaker 4 00:50:02 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:50:03 Oh good. Oh, I'm
Speaker 4 00:50:05 So happy is wonderful. That positiveness.
Speaker 1 00:50:07 Oh, that's wonderful.
Speaker 4 00:50:09 I love the way you talked about as well. And you know, China, you know, I was invited in to do a, a talk, but I wasn't allowed in the government wouldn't let me in. Really? They, they me all kinds of things, you know.
Speaker 1 00:50:24 Oh, but that's a, that's honor. You're lucky they won't let me in either. They, I used to go before they had better computers, and then now that I'm friend of Dai Lama and so on, they don't let me in. I never did anything against them. But, um, and actually Dai Lama loves them too. And we love them. Yeah.
Speaker 4 00:50:41 You,
Speaker 1 00:50:41 The, the materialist fanatic ideology is very, is very harmful to people, you know, it makes them, uh, I, I have a friend, a recent friend, but a dear friend for many, many lifetimes now that I've found her, who I want you to meet in the future when you, I dunno if you've ever come to New York or somehow and somewhere we all meet someone called Lisa Miller, who is a professor at Columbia University Teachers College, and she's also a little bit neuroscientist, and she's the one I learned about the suicide epidemic from and so on. And she's very much into spirituality for even secular people, how to get them to discover their spirituality, even though they, they're against the church and or against the mile score against a synagogue or whatever religion they come from, you know, the secularist, you know? Yeah. And darma also, he considers them like a world religion of materialism, you know, a billion of them maybe.
Speaker 1 00:51:39 And they, and, uh, they somehow, they, the humanism, if it comes out and human rights and some sort of kindness, then they're okay. He can see them as spiritual. And, uh, he tries to, tries to help them that way by not excluding them, you know, from everything. Like he was, he's been invited by ver several popes to meetings at Assisi, you know, cuz of St. Francis was so wonderful. Yeah. And, uh, and he, and he always wa asked them to invite some scientists to neuro to be the priests of the secular religion, <laugh>. And sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. But, um, because they have a kind of spirituality. Right. Originally, all the science in the 17th century came from people who were, thought they were looking at God's work by looking at the, how the world works, you know, how the planet is Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:52:27 And how cars are, they were, they were rebelling against the dogmas of the, of the Inquisition. But they were, they were still thinking God wanted them to look at nature, you know, and then only gradually people became more fanatic about their nihilism, you know, no, no soul, you know? Yeah. And even though mind they think you all we have is we were these brain robots, you know? And that's too bad. That's too simplistic. It's, it's terrible. Well, but the, but the, the nice ones are nice. Anyway, when DMA arrived in America in 79, when America finally gave him a visa after kissing her quit the White House, he said, uh, his religion was the common human religion of kindness. That's his statement. Really. Basically. That's,
Speaker 4 00:53:14 Well, that's, that is a big statement. You know, kindness and forgiveness, you know, and, and love and, and Yes. That is what, what God is, that is what spirituality is. Yes. And they're free. You can't buy them.
Speaker 1 00:53:29 Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 4 00:53:30 And I, I think that's very important for us, um, to remember all of the time. Yes. And and you can't exclude anyone. You have to love everyone no matter what.
Speaker 1 00:53:41 Thank you.
Speaker 4 00:53:42 You've got to, you've got to have that compassion. And I would love to meet those friends of, of yours. And
Speaker 1 00:53:49 I'm going to, I, I would love to meet you. I wanna meet you too. And then you can Well,
Speaker 4 00:53:53 That's angel. You, you, you can, if you want to.
Speaker 1 00:53:57 We'll, listen, we're not gonna not gonna invite us yet, and we will, I promise. And listen, can you lead, you know what, we're running a little bit in time here. Can you lead a little bit meditation for us?
Speaker 4 00:54:08 Okay. I'll like to,
Speaker 1 00:54:09 I mean, you don't have to, but if you'd like to, I'll
Speaker 4 00:54:11 Do a short, um, meditation. Oh, good. And just for a few minutes.
Speaker 1 00:54:15 Okay. That would be great. That's, thank you so much by the way. Just will. Thank you. But okay, let's do, do your little
Speaker 4 00:54:21 Meditation. Okay. So
Speaker 1 00:54:23 I'll call meditate with you.
Speaker 4 00:54:26 I'll just kind of give a, a guidance and, and I would just say, whoever who wants to do the meditation, just get yourself nice and comfortable and in the safe place. And, and when you are ready, I would say take a deep breath. And then as you let it out slowly, just relax your whole body. And I would even say take a second deep breath. And as you let it out, slowly allow yourself to be free, you're soul, to be free, and to take the hand of your guardian angel. And as you take the third deep breath and you let it out slowly allow yourself to feel that presence so strongly that you are walking hand in hand with your gardening angel. You can feel this enormous hand around yours, and yet your hand is fitting into your gardening angel's hand perfectly. And you know, you are safe, you're loved, you're peaceful, you're full of joy, and you have no worries in the world. You're just walking hand in hand with your gardening angel and your gardening angel just bends down and picks you up in its arms. You feel the lightness and the love of your soul. You feel the touch of God, you feel such freedom. And just stay there in the arms of your gardening joy,
Speaker 4 00:56:31 And know you are protected and you're loved. And talk to your gardening joy and allow yourself to see and stay there for a few minutes for as long as you wish. Allow that grace of that love, that touch of your soul and your garden angel, that love, that smile you feel upon you, that light. And I know you have to come back now. Your garden angel is just reminding you before you do. It's always with you. It never leads you. It's your angel for eternity and no one else's. So when you're ready, take a deep breath. And as you let it out, slowly allow yourself to your body again. And take another deep breath. And as you let it out, slowly start to your eyes come back, and then you take a, another deep breath. Give yourself a stretch and smile. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:58:37 Thank
Speaker 4 00:58:37 You. I I would love to say this prayer and that Michael gave me
Speaker 1 00:58:43 Please, please.
Speaker 4 00:58:44 A long time ago. Yes,
Speaker 1 00:58:46 Yes. I saw that.
Speaker 4 00:58:47 The thing about the prayer is that they are the words of God. Mm. It's not actually the arch angel, Michael's prayer. He just carried it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so when angels in my hair came out, everyone in the different languages in different countries mm-hmm. <affirmative> turned around and said, but that's not proper English. Can we change it? You can't change God's words. I said left the same.
Speaker 1 00:59:20 They're perfect as they are.
Speaker 4 00:59:22 So I'm going to say the prayer now. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:59:25 Please
Speaker 4 00:59:25 Do. Okay. Prayer of th healing angels that's carried from God by the art angel Michael for healing angels th heavenly host upon everyone and upon yourself. Let them feel the beam of the healing angels upon them. The light of your healing hand. Let the healing begin. Whatever way God grants, God blesses all. Amen. So I ask for blessings and new beginnings and hope and love for everyone in the world and is, and for yourself, especially in your family too. Okay?
Speaker 1 01:00:02 Yes, Lorna, what a joy to meet you. And thank you so much. Same
Speaker 4 01:00:07 Here
Speaker 1 01:00:07 For coming online with meeting, and I look forward to meeting you. And I thanks to our dear friend Beth who introduced us. I'm so grateful for her. Beth Grossman. She is such a lovely soul. So thank so much and lo all the best of to you and to your children and to all of your flock and, uh, really wonderful. You know, I, I, you know, you know, I don't know if you, you, well, you're not reading books, but there's one wonderful book called How the Irish Saved Civilization by a man named Thomas Cahill. And, uh, one of the main people who, who did a huge thing, you know, it had to do with when, when the Christi, you know, the civilization was lost by all kinds of, you know, tribes, you know, fighting in wars and monastery is being burned and things on the mainland, the main continent in Ireland, all the, the whole literature of classical period was kept in the monastery. And the monastery there were mostly just run by female, by women abbots, you know, by very powerful British nuns, you know, like Hildegard, but I the Irish ones. And, um, you must be the reincarnation of one of them really must be, I
Speaker 4 01:01:19 Don't know, <laugh> Sure you are. I I'm just me. I can't be anyone else.
Speaker 1 01:01:25 You're a force of nature, uh, Lorna. And I'm just happy to meet you and we'll meet again. This is just the beginning. Yeah. Thank you so much. Okay.
Speaker 4 01:01:33 Thank you. God bless.
Speaker 1 01:01:35 We have a thing where we dedicate the merit to, like your prayer does that everyone should be happy and everyone should be loved. And the, and the leaders who are causing harm to people, may they see the light and real and try to love themselves and let other people be grateful that they stop any violent things that they're doing. Let's hope so. Let's pray for that. Yes. The merit of our conversation today. So much and all the best. Okay. Thank you. And thank you Justin who engineered the meeting. And, uh, we will meet again soon. Okay? Yes.
Speaker 4 01:02:09 God bless.
Speaker 1 01:02:11 Bless God bless <laugh>.
Speaker 2 01:02:30 The Bob Thurman podcast is produced through Creative Commons, no derivatives license. Please be sure to like, share and repost on your favorite social media platforms and it's brought to you in part through the generous support Of the Tibet House, US Menlo membership community, and listeners like you. To learn more about the benefits of Tibet House membership, please visit our websites, bus.org men.org, and bob Thurman coms And thanks. Tuning in.
