Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:14 Welcome to my bond Thurman podcast. I'm so grateful and some good friends enabled me to present them to you. If you enjoy them and find them useful, please think of becoming a member of Tibet house us to help preserve Tibetan culture. If that house is the Dalai Lama cultural center in America, All best wishes. Have a great day.
Speaker 2 00:00:48 This is episode 273 chicken and the egg.
Speaker 1 00:01:13 All right. Talking about the Buddha and, uh, not as a Buddhist and actually there's a, that's a famous topic of debate in Tibet in universities. Um, is the Buddha Buddhist in one way? Uh, you know, then you can argue at different ways you can say yes because they were there from beginningless time. Oh, this is an important thing in the Buddhist universe. There is no first beginning of the universe. The universe is they don't take the Genesis literature, literally either the Western version or any Indian version or Chinese version or any, or any version, they don't take that too seriously. And they consider it like the solution to the chicken and egg problem is always another chicken and more eggs. Just beginning, Leslie, it's a silly first. It was an egg and then the chicken came out or first it was the chicken and then they came up. None of that makes any sense.
Speaker 1 00:02:18 And so it's an infinite regress into the past and the beginning of this universe. And that's really very helpful. Actually, it sort of relativizes any particular high priesthood demanding to say that the universe has a fixed start and they know what it is and their God did it, or they did it, or whatever. Some big bang, some scientists in a lab did it. And instead it's, it opens up infinitely toward the past. And once it opens up infinitely toward the past, then it goes on. It's logical that it will go on infinitely to the future. And that doesn't hurt you. It sort of, if you're very, um, uh, insecure and feel that some theory that proclaims itself as the absolute final dogmatic theory, uh, is though it must be so, and that you are comfortable knowing it. If you, if you're like that, then you might feel lost.
Speaker 1 00:03:24 Actually, if you don't have a first beginning hour and there was no fixed end, but once you get used to it, it's kind of cool. It's it doesn't change. It's like, for example, right now you're a finite being you feel, but then you have a concept of infinity and you also must be permeated by infinity because if, if you're a final definitive, you're dependent on not being permeated by infinity, you would infinity wouldn't be infinite. It would be one place. It wasn't that, that was you, the finite BA it would be no infinity there, right? And that's clearly not possible. So in a sense, it's very logical that you are both finite and infinite and it doesn't, it doesn't hurt your finitude. And even it might relax your sense of the sort of absolute this of your boundary and my make you feel a little more open and permeable to the world, which you are actually, because for example, right now I'm inhaling and you're inhaling and what you're inhaling, what you want in what you're inhaling is the oxygen that sort of energizing element.
Speaker 1 00:04:46 And that is the gift of the plants. The plants are giving that to you and they have separated it from hydrogen and water and from whatever. And they're giving you that oxygen, which you need to nourish and energize your body. And then you expel when you inhale, you expel the carbon dioxide and then the plants grab it. Hey, great carbon. And they make themselves, um, uh, healthy. They grow from that. So you're in a wonderful exchange and you, your body is permeated by the gift of the plans and you give them back something. Of course, if you're giving back too much, then that clogs the whole system, right. Pollutes the system. But that's our great, wonderful planet that we have of interaction with the beloved plants who love us. They completely adore us and we should really be nicer to them. If we really realized they were the donors of our oxygen that we certainly can't do without, right.
Speaker 1 00:06:03 We have to breathe well anyway. So I'm going to talk about Buddha in the sense that Buddha might have described. It does describe this process and he he's very into lotuses and into plans. And, uh, he, he wants us to be aware of when he attained enlightenment and he shooed away the devil and his famous story, he was under a tree. And, uh, he, then he placed his hand on the earth, touched the earth, and he called the earth to witness his interconnectedness to all of life and all of her infinite reality. And this infinite connection was actually how he convinced the devil to leave him alone and to allow him to give his teaching. And so his sort of from the beginning, the Buddha's teaching was seeing true teaching of interconnection. You should realize that, and that, that inner connection is good. And that's what you get away from.
Speaker 1 00:07:06 Any idea you have the Buddha's main message was that everything is horrible. In fact, that's the main message of most cultures that you have to be very much afraid of things and that you need such and such you're God's protection or such and such a leader is protection. The emperor for the high priest or the sorcerer chief sourcer or whatever it is that you can't. Um, cause you're in a very dangerous place because life is very dangerous. And somehow we, we, we are in July toppers here on this planet and a planet doesn't really like us and it's not adequate for our needs. And we have to remake it in some way and spawn in order to be out of foot. And these are, these are all maybe not such good ideas actually. And they make us feel insecure and they make us feel unnecessarily paranoid fear actually on the other hand is a good thing.
Speaker 1 00:08:02 If fear is not taught in Buddhist psychology, scientifically it's not taught that fear is bad because some things are harmful. Like you should be afraid to take a knife and Acura and cartoons you will bleed. And that's no good. So show fear is a good cautionary thing. It's some part of your sensitivity, but unreasonable fear, paranoia insecurity, anxiety. This is not helpful. So, so that's where I definitely was. First teaching was that the reality of the world is Nirvana is bliss is freedom from suffering is, is goodness. And the universe is all good if you really understand it. Okay. Which I harped on last time, but I'm coming back to again, but anyway, I'm going to talk today about the issue of nothingness, because in order for us to take seriously, the Bardo in which we living and the Bardot in which we will be after the moment of death, which for which there is a definition in Buddhist science, it's not exactly the same as the flat line.
Speaker 1 00:09:13 If you think of that as the Western definition is not as the same and a brain that is, is not the same as the heart, not beating, actually it doesn't occur at the exact time that the heart stops beating. It's simple. It takes a little longer to actually die. And the death definition is when the super stuggle selfless soul, my continuum, which sometimes is called the indestructible drop, like a pretty little thing, like a drunk, you know, like I've been to like a drop titillate. They call it Tibetans or drop Bindu in Sanskrit where that indestructable drop or their con, but it's not, it's not a fixed thing. It's not like a bar code. It's not a personal thing that has your image printed in it, for example, or your DNA printed in it exactly as your DNA is at some particular moment, but your house is always changing a little bit, you know, DNA does, but it's sort of a spiritual, it carries the spiritual DNA.
Speaker 1 00:10:17 You could say. And it's sort of not the only mental and it's not only physical. It's at a stage of stubbornness that is beyond the duality of mental and physical, but it sustains the duality and the other hand of mental and physical it when it sort of, when it w when it proceeds and its creativity and its joy and its pleasure bliss, it sustains that. So this is, uh, you know, again, some of you who are hard, didn't devote as some, perhaps from some schools may be shocked because you, you haven't been interpreting Westerners have been interpreting for a long time. It's the selfless teaching of Buddha, the teaching of selflessness and Optima or night out of non-self. As some people like to call it, I ride over lifetime. I call it, I called selflessness better than non-self I think. And, um, and they've been translating that or thinking of that as soullessness.
Speaker 1 00:11:20 And that was, that was associated with Buddhism, by people who were studying it early on in the 19th century, who were atheist and were trying to get away from being threatened by the version of God that they encountered as children and their churches that was threatening them with hell hell's fire and all kinds of trouble. And so they wanted to get away from that. So they worked real to find something with something like a spiritual hygiene or something that they associate with religions. And they were thrilled to find that there was one that said there is no soul, and that's why people have been so stuck for the last few centuries, the Western enlightenment. In other words, what's called the Western enlightenment from the 17th century, you know, following the reformation, then you have the enlightenment and it Renaissance reformation, enlightenment. You have those kinds of terms.
Speaker 1 00:12:14 If you all know that God is in school. And the alignment was that nature does not provide a soul for the human being or even that the mind and the solar not necessary. And the nature is a material process. And at the very beginning, maybe they thought there was a kind of God, like a, like a day is what they call day is who got it going, but then dropped out, took a long vacation and just let the material, the material of the universe, including the living beings, where material entities just carry on, you know? And so that's enlightenment and it was a rebellion against the church in the west. And, um, and in a way it was healthy because people had been intimidated by the inquisition and by, you know, to be in fear for their soul, uh, that there were some old, powerful being that it was going to doom them if they didn't do exactly what the Pope or the high priest or the minister told them they should do, or the good book should do.
Speaker 1 00:13:25 And, um, so, so that's why they have become so attached to that, that they have become themselves nowadays fanatics and teaching our materialism is, is the way that the world, that that's reality. And so we have to question that does it, the key to beginning Bardot, the way we get connected to the Varda to the, between stages of the process of life is we find in ourselves where we accepted that. And as children in schools, we were maybe a little uncomfortable with it. We may be linked to church or synagogue or temple or something, and we thought, well, maybe there's something else. But when we got sick, we ran to the materialist doctor who said, even vitamin C, sorry, and you just have to take their drugs and their surgery. And when, and when we take, it's really real, we take, guess it's real, it's real.
Speaker 1 00:14:26 And we're taught that. And we're even taught desensitized and things in schools like dissecting our living frog in a biology class, but it doesn't feel it's an animal. Doesn't feel only in the last decade, practically, other than Albert Schweitzer, the great office writes her scientist insisted that animals didn't have feelings. They didn't have sensitivity. They kind of insisted that. And, um, which everyone knows by common sense is not true. So we intuitively we were, we've been put in a situation where our intuition, which our intuition sort of feels connected to things. It feels that things have a continuity. It feels that there's something subtler in the world that just the course matter. But if we did distrust those feelings and we, we, we, we go with a concept that we, our destiny is nothing that nothing is awaiting us. And that means death is the doorway into that nothingness.
Speaker 1 00:15:27 And that, that nothing does eradicate. So everything we did in life and the good part of that eradication is that it eradicates whatever we did, the consequences of whatever we did, that was bad. And that makes us a little bit psycho in our ability to beat bad, actually to cut off our own innate and intuitive dislike of being that nobody likes to be bad. And when, and everyone goes, but when someone else gets hurt around you, you feel, Ooh, you feel bad. I buy your mirror neurons that have been recently discovered. They discovered them in Italy. I think it's up there between pots, that past that meals and the Mediterranean diet. They discovered the mirror neurons in a, in a neuroscience lab, which are aware when you see something happen to somebody, you, you rehearse it as if it happened to you, which, which, uh, the wonderful, um, uh, whatever his name is, uh, here, uh, Jeremy Rifkin, the wonderful Jeremy Rifkin.
Speaker 1 00:16:29 He wrote a wonderful book called empathic civilization that I highly recommend to you. So, so this is key. So, so we are, the key is that we are, we feel science is authoritative. In other words, and science tells us that nothing is waiting for us. And I argued with my colleagues and the college who are the high priests of the academy nowadays, which are the natural scientists they're called and <inaudible>. And that is heresy to consider that there was some sort of spirit or soul or saying, and they kind of like Buddhists, you know, so I saw, I'm sorry, I kind of blew our cover because they think that we are the religion that doesn't have a soul, but that's false. We do, even in Teravata Buddhism, the more so simple sort of foundational level, um, there's something called the continuum of mind, chip that's on Tana, which means that mine goes from life to life and mine continues.
Speaker 1 00:17:32 And then this becomes the Buddha nature in the Mahayana or the Buddha essence, even the Buddha womb. And, and then in the VOD drown, it becomes the indestructible drop. Um, that's what, that's what we were talking about in the, between state, in the sort of, which is the Vondra. And it's part of the Mahayana actually really don't listen to people who tell you that vagina is not the universal gear for the non dual vehicles. It is a non-dual vehicle, but it's the most, it deals with the most subtle level of the non dual and the end. It has a little bit of esoteric about it because you have to have certain prerequisite understandings and commitments to safely go into that super subtle level and discover your deeper energies. Let's say, if you, if you start discovering your deeper energies while you are being whipped around by your unconscious, uh, you, when you haven't confronted it in a more certain level, then you, it could be a danger.
Speaker 1 00:18:33 It's, it's not, it's dangerous for you. You could get out of control, but that's right. It was as a terror. Okay. You know, Eero, Centeno tones in the unconscious that dear old Freud discovered, you know, the erotic and the, and the aggressive, um, you know, death and lost, uh, they're there and everyone's unconscious. And, uh, if you expose to, if you become more aware with them before you have a little bit of detachment from them, you're kind of in danger in danger yourself. So that's the only reason it was an esoteric. Okay. Now, why did I finally be free myself from the scientist? Because I've asked, kept asking them questions. And then the question that finally was successful, and the one that I want you to meditate on is use scientists. Your method is to go by the facts. You go by what you find to be there as reality. Okay? So which one of you found nothing who was the discover of nothing?
Speaker 1 00:19:51 Did someone get a Nobel prize in Stockholm and a tuxedo for having discovered nothing that then we know as part of reality and therefore that's what we teach because we only teach, you know, all series, all scientific theories or hypotheses accounting for the evidence of what we have experienced to experiment or experience. And then, uh, they are waiting for notification on their Vera, or they're verified by more experience and more evidence and more experiments. And if some experiment and experience falsifies them, we have to modify the theory. So no theory is an absolute dogma. That's your scientific thing, right? So what was your experience of nothing and who experienced it please say, and all I got is irritation.
Speaker 1 00:20:47 Even I even like to tease them, the ones who are more friendly say did Carl Sagan show up at the physics association meeting in Chicago after he died and say, it's okay, guys, it's cool. I'm cool. And calm and peaceful in nothing. And I don't exist. So I'm verifying that nothing is your destiny. And there's no, there's no teleology. There's no purpose in life. And there's no, God, there's no soul. And there's no, actually, therefore, no mind really did Carlos show up and tell you that after dying actually, well, obviously he couldn't have, because he did nothing they could say.
Speaker 1 00:21:34 But point is, there is no such thing as nothing. Luckily that's the big Eureka thing. That's it? That's an enlightenment to really know that nothing is nothing. And another thing I love to do is with an audience like you, who guys, I might say, who's afraid of nothing. Or you could sneak up on them more by saying who's afraid of nothingness. And then you first see a bunch of hands. People who are more cautious, few brave ones, they're existential. I say, well, yeah, I'm not afraid of nothing. And then, then I asked him if, if Rambo a real life, Rambo's sat up here on stage and said, I'm afraid of nothing. What would you think he meant? And of course you you'd think he meant he wasn't afraid. So nothing is nothing. So no, it's impossible to be afraid of nothing. You're just afraid of what you're paranoid. You're projecting because nothing is nothing. So it can't hurt you. Well, this is really important. You think this is just a many, it isn't, it's really important. And so, so I think you should meditate on it. Let's meditate. Now. I want you to meditate. And probably a lot of you know, about basic mindfulness practice. <inaudible>,
Speaker 1 00:22:55 you know, focusing on your breathing, which is the beginning of focusing on the body actually, because the breath is the kind of the bridge between mind and body in the Buddhist saying, so you just, um, just sort of withdrawal from your different sense, preoccupations and just inhale and exhale. I'm trying not to inhale extra deeply. Try not to exhale extra strongly. Just let it go ahead. Naturally. When you just do that to start with, just to calm down and then you meditate on nothing. Once you get going a little bit in calming a little bit, think, take, take the object of your meditation to be nothing.
Speaker 1 00:23:58 And when you do that, you may reel. You may come to think of the sort of black or dark space, blank space, but dark blank space. So a black space. But then you kind of realize if you have a picture in your mind of a black space for a blank space, that's not nothing because it's space. So you could, you could imagine a Buddha sitting in it, or you could imagine yourself sitting in it and you wouldn't be sitting in nothing because nothing would be neither space nor time is not an object, actually. So actually you're setting yourself an impossible goal. When you think of meditating on nothing, because nothing is nothing. It's neither light nor dark. It's neither space nor impenetrability the opposite of space, something crowding.
Speaker 1 00:25:08 And so you realize that it can't be something to fear and you just kind of focus on that and calm yourself. And you've maybe had moments in your life where you might, there is an expression of you say, oh, you think I'm just nothing. And so you're mad at someone or someone's mad at you, or they're insulting you or accusing you or disregarding you. You say you've treated me like I'm nothing. So we do associate it with something negative, but it's not really negative because it isn't dare. So it's not the opposite of something except as it verbal term. And then, so when we fall asleep, I hope you did that meditation last night, when you fall asleep, you kind of let go of your consciousness, bless it rest. And it's a kind of a nice slide. And, but if you're very, very mindful and dear Judith, then a bit, maybe it has that problem that you are afraid because you feel maybe you never wake up again. So you kind of feel that you're losing control of your condition yourself, your boundary you're, you're functioning as a, as a body. And so you were frightened that change. So you need something to help you go past that hump. But that can't be nothing that is frightening because you can't be in nothing. It can't go into nothing. Can't be stuck in it because it isn't anything. Dark space is a dark space, which is not nothing.
Speaker 1 00:27:08 So obviously when I say to the scientist, show me the experience of nothing that you, that who discovered it. What makes it as a piece of scientific data that it exists? Nothing exists before the big bang. There was nothing. They'll say that those guys that's ridiculous. There was no nothing before that, because there never is nothing. That's the one thing that never is, that's why we call it nothing. So there was always something before any big bang or big crunch or, or little crunch or whatever it is. Cause there was something chicken and egg going back. Endlessly is fine. Doesn't bother us. If we're adjusting a chicken or an egg point forward does bother us. We want to be human being who we want to be. We want to be booed out. We want to be a field of blue egg of bliss. We don't want to just be chicken than a, so that could be a problem, but not to bind background.
Speaker 1 00:28:19 Now, as you're meditating, this, your mind will wander, especially because you're beginning to realize you can't find any object. That is nothing to focus on. You know, above, uh, I bought an old Posana. It means focus not foundation, by the way, focus, focus on you. Can't focus. So then your mind is why man? Why is he asking me to do this? That's obvious. I know that. But then you stop to think about your picture of death, your picture of unconsciousness, your picture of empty space out there between the, you know, the solar system between the stars and the galaxy. You know, you feel that sort of nothingness. So you think there is a nothingness. Although, you know, that light goes through it and it's always actually space. But anyway, you think of it as nothing. And you feel that you're going to be nothing. And a lot of us feel we are nothing actually, why we are depressed.
Speaker 1 00:29:24 Why is depression so huge? Because the high priests to the arbitrators of reality, the authorities on what is reality in our backward culture tells us that nothing is the final reality. It's kind of the foundation of everything. And we revert to it when we die. And we're already there in the sense that our sense of being at a subjectivity, it presents a person having a mind or even a soul is something is an illusion. It's just wetware is just a illusion in a computer, a biological computer. And we're already nothing actually. And that's why materials, you know, Sam Harris and others, a lot of other writers lately, we'll in books, you know, excoriating religions for having crazy ideas and causing a lot of Vore and violence by some dogmatic, phonetic theory, like, you know, God is with us, no charge, you know, and now you're going to have a that's correct in a way it happened, but they kind of inconveniently for their thesis.
Speaker 1 00:30:37 They left out stolen and now, and total atheist who consider people to be spiritually, nothing and themselves to be spiritually, nothing, which is why they like to remain drunk most of the time. So they felt like nothing sort of felt comfortable as nothing. They were incredibly destructive because in a way, the blind faith in nothing as your final reality is the most rigid form of blind faith. Because it's so desperate because it completely contradicts the intuition of effort and everything is something. Everyone knows that there's no there, even the law of thermodynamics, you know, energy may go into entropy and like be scattered and diffused, but they never can become nothing. They know that in the theory, we have an image of everything being nothing. And this makes, this has created this backward civilization of the industrialized world that is wrecking the world and is ends up a self-destruct because about it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1 00:31:49 Cause it's nothing right. And that's why there is no, it isn't a frog in a boiling boiling pot. You know, that doesn't care because it's too far away, we are capable of long-term planning and avoiding long-term dangers and difficulties. We do it all the time, but we just don't go beyond this life for ourselves. And we, we fanatic and we stay on this side. We are going to be nothing. So we won't be there. We love our kids and our grandkids, but secretly, well, at least I won't be there. We don't, we never a that to ourselves. Who's we wouldn't on our kids to think that we are like that. I actually, we want them to be like that. Cause we send them off to material, the school to be taught.
Speaker 1 00:32:40 So it's actually very strong self-contradictory thing to be blind phase believer in nothing. 'cause, you know, there's no nothing. Everyone knows. So this is really key. And then, then you hit this one and you find in yourself, it kind of devil may care attitude about yourself and about life and in attentive, little bit disconnected sense. How about yourself? I love and you fine. This is the circuit breaker. This is the psycho neurological, philosophical, scientific, spiritual circuit breaker. Deep in the core of your being is a, you don't really have to worry. It doesn't matter. It all won't matter. Ultimately it's all doesn't matter. That means it's all nothing. Do you get it? Okay. That sort of thing. That's the first medication I know I kept talking during it, but it was a guided meditation. Don't be mad please. So that's really, really key. And the Buddha completely got that and you know, he, but, but you can see how Buddhism could be distorted by materials of which there are many when they cause Buddha taught selflessness and emptiness and then there's oh, Andy, not so good.
Speaker 1 00:34:15 He was hip to nothing. That's wrong before us. So then, oh, he's very scientific. That's great. He agrees with us materialists. No, he doesn't emptiness doesn't mean nothing. That's not at all. In fact, one of the most important emptiness is the emptiness of nothingness, which in a way means that nothing is, is empty of being any kind of thing in itself. And what it is is only dependent. It's an interrelated concept depending on the concept of something so that nothing, nothing is the thing that isn't there on something as old as the things that are there. And those things are that are there are empty, which means they are not separate from nothing or because they don't need to because nothing isn't there. So you don't, there's no question of being separate. So they are only into you're connecting with other things. They're all relational and Denis really means relativity.
Speaker 1 00:35:17 Does it mean nothing as the material is? Buddhist will definitely wants to say it. I'm arguing with the man saying this that's as strongly as the scientist, as the net material and sciences scientific materials will, but you will. They'll argue with us. You will, you have seen it. Now you have thought about it. And it's so simple. Nothing is nothing Eureka. It's not a place. It's not a destination. It's not a location, nothing to fear. And emptiness is that bomb two for the fear of nothingness, as well as the bomb for the fear of any absolute something that bomb means that everything is related. Everything is relative, absolute relativity. If you will, which means you are interconnected with everything. And then the more you become aware of the more you expand your feeling of interconnection, the more you realize that everything is this, what we call clear light of emptiness.
Speaker 1 00:36:26 It's this in this boundless, infinite energy that is just there wanting to serve on us, to help us, to embrace us, to nourish us, to sustain us and it's and, and death death is when we touch it actually most deeply, but we touch it all the time. We don't know that we touched all the time because the touch or is it already we're made in, it has the infinite energy of life. But when we sort of get close to it is when we get so bountiful in our contact of life. We don't need to depend on the one's particular continuum of life, particular body, but that's not because our body becomes nothing. It's because our body temporarily becomes everything. We melt into all of it and it's fully okay. I know I'm jumping ahead there. Okay. Now, so, but this is very important, you know, otherwise it's just a play, but that's playing is also good, but it's just a play, you know?
Speaker 1 00:37:31 Oh yeah. I want to worry about future life. I believe maybe I was clear pattern last life or Mark Anthony or, or Romeo, or I don't know, somewhat happy, hurt, you know, found Vaughn or whatever. And, uh, or, you know, when you underlying you are brought up as a materialist in our modern industrial culture. Now you can't just say Western nowadays, it's global, but then at a deeper level, you don't really, you're not really committed to your interconnectedness because if you really connected your interconnectedness, you're automatically totally cheered up. You're not afraid of death. You realize death is itself like nothing and that's the death of death. And so death becomes the substance of infinite life, something like that. Anyway. So that's, that's a, that's a more broad and you get it in you and you can confidently move toward that on the basis of scientific discovery.
Speaker 1 00:38:48 No, because actually Buddha did discover nothing in the sense that he realized it wasn't there. And he then discovered emptiness, which was the realization that everything is there as interconnected with everything else and our experience of everything ourselves as if it were separate from, and each one was an independent sort of self subsistence, intrinsically real absolute thing in its separation is completely illusory. It's like a, it's like someone who gets so into Avengers end game and the battle with Stanos that they they've practically feel it themselves when Ironman gets killed. Thank God. I hate that. They killed off iron man. I forgot too. I'm sorry. I didn't like it. I don't, since I was a small child, I'm very silly person. I don't like tragedies. I don't like unhappy endings high raises them and refuse them. I was rewriting. I shouted screens and things when I'm not irritating.
Speaker 1 00:40:12 Other people I'm watching something semi alone or in good company, but then they try to shut. They do shut me up. But anyway, I hate it. The other day, there was a young man in the French village and a young lady was so, um, but then he was being dragged off to sea by somebody and they had the Liberty to get married. They made love. And then he ran out to see, anyway, she pushed him to go off and her own nervous that's about it. And then she was reduced to the village. Terrible, terrible, terrible. It's just mean
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Speaker 2 00:41:44 Tashi. And thanks for tuning it.
