A Tibet House US Menla Conversation with Andy Chaleff - Ep. 345

[00:00:14] Speaker A: Welcome to my Bob Thurman podcast. I'm so grateful some good friends enabled me to present them to you. If you enjoy them and find them useful, please think of becoming a member of Tibet House. US to help preserve culture. Tibet House is the Dalai Lama's cultural center in America. All best wishes. Have a great day. [00:00:49] Speaker B: This is episode 345. [00:01:21] Speaker A: Welcome, everybody. I'm so happy to be here with my guest, who is the wonderful, notable, remarkable Andy Talef, who wrote this great book, Dying to Live, which I love. Although, you know, I should write a counterpart saying dying to Die. Yeah, that's for fast. But no, I 100% love the title and the book. And actually I learned something very important from it which will come out during our discussion. And that was really quite wonderful. And so anyway, welcome Andy Talef. How are you? [00:02:02] Speaker B: Thank you. I'm very well and I'm grateful to be with you for this time. [00:02:07] Speaker A: Well, it's really good. It's really fun. And you have. [00:02:12] Speaker B: Yes. I'm in Puerto Rico, so I've got a lot of heat. [00:02:16] Speaker A: You're in Indonesia. [00:02:18] Speaker B: I was, but I had to travel here. So I happened to be here for this call that was. [00:02:24] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Because I was wondering, how could Indonesia have daylight at this time? I get it. [00:02:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Everything is backwards. [00:02:36] Speaker A: It is. Well, so. And Andy is in Puerto Rico, although he has moved his residence to Indonesia, which I'm very fascinated by. Yeah. So. So in his book, he. You record many cases. Are you a technique? I'm not sure. Are you a. Technically a counselor, officially, like a shrink or something? [00:02:58] Speaker B: You know, it. No, I. I'm, you know, I. I went through the life of hard knocks, I think, which a lot of people do. And, you know, When I was 19, my mom was killed by a drunk driver. Yeah, of course. And that. That flipped my life upside down. And when I was. And when I was 20, I left America. And I hadn't lived in America now for 35 years. And it was more of like running away from the pain of that loss was the journey and in traveling and [00:03:37] Speaker A: kind of that in the sense. I left Harvard in 2021. Yeah. To. To go to India to find a guru. And I was never going to go back to America and so on. And, you know, the same age, actually, but that. Me much earlier than you, of course, but as you are much younger. But that's fascinating. Really. I don't know if you remember the age in the book. I remember your account of how the death of your mother was really precipitated with death. So, okay, please go. So go. Carry on. [00:04:11] Speaker B: Yeah, so that was the journey. The journey was escaping that pa. And that pain defined me for most of my life. And it wasn't, it wasn't until, you know what normally happens, you get to your 30s or 40s. Luckily, if it's 30 and you look in the mirror and you say, wow, if this is my life, I'm really not happy with the movie script that's written from it. This is not the script I want at the end of my life. And so then I quit my job, sold everything I owned, and I found my. I mean, I don't know if he'd like for me to call him my guru, but I found my guru a non dual. [00:04:50] Speaker A: Please remind me, who's the guru? [00:04:51] Speaker B: No, no, his name was Case de Brown and he was, he was very fond of Krishnamurti and he was very strong non dual teachings. And I spent a decade with him and I just, I wasn't the greatest student, but what I did was. And this is what I learned. And I only realized this is part of the Buddhist teaching is that there's a lot less teaching and there's a lot more modeling of behavior. And it's through seeing the other that you begin to embody it yourself without needing to sort of learn the content. It becomes almost implicit. [00:05:31] Speaker A: That's at a certain level after a lot of learning in some cases. And some people who have the formal life propensity, as the Buddhists would understand it, then they don't need all that learning, you know, so really, that's great. Where, where was it that you were mentored by? By the guru. [00:05:48] Speaker B: So I, I actually lived in Vienna, Austria. And then he came into the, to the company I was in. And I remembered being at my desk and I started to sweat and get anxious because I realized like that rabbit hole went further than anything I could see the bottom of. And it was only a few weeks later I just quit and left everything and then moved to Amsterdam and that was it. And then I moved to Amsterdam and then I was with him for a decade and he died. So when he, when he died, it was really beautiful because I had the ego of somebody who was successful. And then I lived in service to somebody who had a beautiful vision. And then he died. And then I felt like that fear and the. Now it's my responsibility, whatever that means. I didn't yet know to carry it forward. I could get emotional, I could cry about it, because it's the most beautiful feeling in the world to say, I don't know what it is, but it can't be absent the gift he's given me. [00:06:50] Speaker A: Oh, that's good. Yeah. [00:06:54] Speaker B: And then I started writing books. And I hadn't written a book, but I just intuitively said, I'll let the writing guide me. And I went through my first three books, and then I got to the book of what's the most uncomfortable topic? The thing I would want to write least, the thing I don't want to spend any time with. And then death was the one. And I've always felt there's a beauty in sitting with a discomfort and not trying to understand it, but be as vulnerable as you can in the sharing of what it feels like. Feels like. And that was why I decided to take on death as a subject. [00:07:32] Speaker A: I think it's totally great. But now I realize why I wasn't so much aware of the guru. Because in the earlier books, you must have told that story. [00:07:40] Speaker B: Yes, of course. [00:07:41] Speaker A: Yeah. What's the name of the book you tell about the guru? [00:07:45] Speaker B: That would have been the Last Letter. [00:07:47] Speaker A: The Last Letter, yeah, Because look that one up. I'm sure that's awesome. I will now do that. I'm sorry I didn't do that before. Now I shouldn't. Okay, so then. Then what? Was sort of the gist of it. You said he was a Krishnamurti student himself. [00:08:05] Speaker B: Yeah. What he forced me to see was this polarity in my thinking all of the time and the creation of story. And he was. I can't say he was a loving teacher. He's almost like someone, if you put your hand out, he'd smack you. And so it was a bit. [00:08:21] Speaker A: To me, that's a good sign. [00:08:23] Speaker B: Yeah. There wasn't. There wasn't, like, hey, I'm going to soften you up to the message. He's like, you know. You know, and you're missing the point. You're missing them. And he would explain it, but I wouldn't understand it until I felt it. I embodied it. And I was like, oh, wow. That's what it feels like when you're in the state of seeing life or things in that way. [00:08:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:46] Speaker B: And that was beautiful. [00:08:48] Speaker A: And what is that way now? Come on. [00:08:51] Speaker B: Oh, oh. [00:08:52] Speaker A: What is that way? [00:08:55] Speaker B: I want to get emotional because it's so beautiful. It's when the seer and the beer are equally inhabiting your consciousness. It's the Andy who is so pathetic and judgmental and frustrated and angry and then the seer simultaneously laughing at him and having fun and almost. And not giving anyone the control. And then seeing the construction of everything in terms of the narration and how that narration is defining me as I'm. It's almost like the humor of even seeing myself do anything and then realizing that way I'm creating an identity and I'm now stuck again. And there's compassion and there's love and there's appreciation and gratitude and it all arises from that kind of the simplicity of seeing through your own thoughts without making it intellectual, but just being with that. Yeah. [00:10:01] Speaker A: Yes. So the seeing. The seeing is pushing you past the. Because when you do you do your anti identity, then you're getting stew or automatically can seem like getting stuck there. And then the seer will see through that. [00:10:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:10:17] Speaker A: And then the seer will see the. The relativity of the identity. And then it's only temporary thing. And then. Yeah, then what about. Then what about. Does the seer encourage you to shape a different kind of identity or constantly change the different relative identities, so to speak? [00:10:36] Speaker B: I. I would say if the seer in my mind, and this is just how I would say I experience it. If the seer is doing that, then the seer is wanting of something or desiring of something, then that would seems like it would fall back into the ego identity. [00:10:50] Speaker A: Come frozen as a seer. Okay. [00:10:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's, it's. [00:10:55] Speaker A: It would never leave to your identity or rather you leave it up to yourself and your identity play. [00:11:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:05] Speaker A: To move beyond any stuck one or something like that. [00:11:07] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, and people would say that when they're with me, they'll say even when I'm suffering, it's. I have so much compassion for my suffering that it's not really suffering. You know, it's like, it's like almost like. It's like, yeah, I see you suffering. But like I write an article every week and I write about the harder parts of my life, but I'm never feeling like I'm stuck in those moments. It's like, no, this is a. It's an honest feeling. It's honestly coming up and it's expressed in its fullest emotional state. But it doesn't mean that's who I am. It means that's an experience I've had. Yeah, that's the feeling. [00:11:48] Speaker A: Where do you publish that article? Where does one find that I published. [00:11:51] Speaker B: I published that on substack. [00:11:53] Speaker A: Oh, substack. Oh, good. Oh yeah. Okay. It's a wonderful place to publish on substack. Did you substack? Does your subject offering Have a title separate from. [00:12:03] Speaker B: It's just my name, Andy Chaliff. Andy Chalif. [00:12:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:08] Speaker B: I'd love to share one story, if I may, which is just. So I was in Jakarta, like I said, for about half a year, feeling very lonely and isolated. The time zone is exactly 12 hours difference from New York, so it's very hard to engage with people. And then I spent a lot of time not really engaging with the world. And then Thanksgiving came, and then I said, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to go out to an event because I've got to put myself in the world and meet some new friends. So that I went to the. I saw the America Club, had a Thanksgiving dinner. So then. So then I went to the dinner. And it was a banquet setting and the typical buffet. And I go in and they seat me. There's 15 round tables. Each table has eight. Eight chairs. And they seat me at the only table that only has one seat for me. So there's. There's eight chairs, but they seat me alone at this table. [00:13:05] Speaker A: Oh, no. [00:13:07] Speaker B: And the gorgeous thing was I wanted to cry. And I didn't. I wanted to cry because the table was like a reflection, a mirror to me of how I felt inside. And I was like, how beautifully represented. How beautifully represented is this. Of how my inner state is. And it's being reflected to me in the most visceral of ways. [00:13:28] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:13:30] Speaker B: And then I get to write. I get to write about that. I get to feel the pain and the loneliness. But that doesn't define me. It's not. It's also who I am. But it isn't just that. And there's a beauty in that. [00:13:42] Speaker A: Nobody came over to your table and you couldn't. No. The other one came. [00:13:48] Speaker B: The others were all full. I couldn't just walk. [00:13:50] Speaker A: You hadn't known any of them beforehand? [00:13:52] Speaker B: I didn't know anything. It was assigned seating. They put me where I was sitting, and it was just, here you go. And the last thing I wanted to go out was to go out to eat dinner. And then this table happened to be right at the front of the room. Everyone had to walk past me to get to their table. So it was almost humiliating. It was just beautiful. And that level of just utter absurdity is where the seer gets to laugh and have fun and just enjoy it. And, and, and then, and then, then this one who's feeling the pain of the loneliness is just also there, thinking, this feels horrible. I went out to meet people. I feel more Alone now than I did before I arrived. [00:14:34] Speaker A: Oh, my. Yeah, well, probably. What. At the embassy there is the Trump administration ambassador and. Yeah, yeah, that's really something. It's quite amazing actually, that they would be like that and they knew, they knew who you were, that you were just there, you were a newbie there and all this. [00:14:54] Speaker B: They knew all of it. No, but, you know, that's life and that's the, that's the kind of, that's the. When you're on the ride, you don't get to decide the experience. You only get to decide how you embody it and how you, how you metabolize. [00:15:09] Speaker A: In that situation, I think I would have eaten quickly and left. You know, I would have been, I would have been disillusioned and badly. Well, so now what's happened in Puerto Rico? What, what, do you have a presence there or what's going on? [00:15:23] Speaker B: You know, as, as, you know, like the. Because we have a mutual friend, which is how we came to meet one another. And, and I, I'm basically. I visit clients around the world. I'll take a kind of a world tour once or twice a year and just to visit clients, you know, and all my clients are friends. So we say I love you and we connect and we, you know, we find a way to kind of go through life together and then sometimes we work more and sometimes we work less, but I make it a habit or discipline. We're going to physically be together once a year at least if we're going to be working together. [00:16:02] Speaker A: That's really good. That's really good. I only. I went there one time and to San German. Do you know, I think I've heard the name. The name, yes, the south southwest part of the island. Yeah, it was quite nice. I had a weird art collecting friend who had a shop there and a built place there and it's a beautiful island. I was always having trouble. Why is people having poverty here? It must be America's fault, you know, because it's a really lovely island. [00:16:35] Speaker B: It's lovely. [00:16:36] Speaker A: It really is fantastic. So, so then, you know, what I learned from your book, which I really liked, is that the belief that death is the end facing that. Although from, from a certain point of view, from a Hindu or a Buddhist point of view, that's mistaken, actually. [00:16:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:16:59] Speaker A: But, but the fact that it's, it's. It has been important for 3, 400 years in the west is a sign that it was a very good way. I mean, I could have intellectually said that it was a Good way of getting away from the fear of hell that was drummed into people's heads in the West. Very, very much by the preacher skynes. You know, the fire and brimstone preachers who are in charge of stuff and the weird Calvinism and everything. But. And the way, therefore, it's a kind of bomb for that, at least, you know, you're not facing the terror of pain, you know. [00:17:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:36] Speaker A: And it's just a matter of letting go of your sense of control, of your instrument, of your embodiment. And that to me was a kind of gave me more tolerance of that view. [00:17:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I can imagine. Because [00:17:53] Speaker A: the Dalai Lama is so sweet. In Buddha's time, there was someone who promoted that view in a humorous manner. Achillean, which was. He used to say, well, if you can go to the afterlife after you die and then become an ancestor, and then your progeny can send you tea and cookies through the fire, through rituals. Why are we being so stingy? Why don't we just jump in ourselves and throw in the whole harvest? Yeah, they would make jokes like that. But when the Dalai Lama says, although we disagree with the. The impact of that worldview, that there's no future life, but nevertheless, he and all the other Hindus do too. And the Jains are too. But we. We. Everyone calls the guy who sort of was the main protagonist of that, we call him a Rishi, anyway. [00:18:49] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [00:18:50] Speaker A: Yeah, we say he's a Rishi. And so that shows the tolerance for different views, you know, that people can. Even though, you know, we could. We could. We will be at pains to try to refute it in an individual case, to encourage them to prepare rather for the future as well, learning to let go in the present. And your book confirmed for me in an emotional way, in a. In a lived way, how that does work for people really well. [00:19:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:20] Speaker A: And I think you can't, you know, when, like people in hospice and things, they can't be starting to form a future life with someone who's thinking, you know, and it's very nice that they. Slipping into a velvet. A velvet nothing. [00:19:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. You know what's interesting, though? It's funny because when you say. When you say that I was saying there was no afterlife, I was really careful to say that I'm agnostic as to the idea because what I didn't want to say. And I wrote it. There was that one chapter which was really hard for me to write, and I love it. Yeah, I wrote the chapter. Chapter, is there a God? And I. And I And sitting with it. Let's put it this way, Bob. If the question made me uncomfortable, I wrote about it. Like any question that's like, oh, this is a hard one to touch. And. And what I. And the reason for it was there's so many people that are disenchanted with the Catholic teachings. Right. Like, it's been. I mean. I mean, and there's so. And there's so much animosity in it. It's a group that's utterly shocked me how much an. There is. [00:20:31] Speaker A: Yeah. The atheists are really pissed if you talk about God. [00:20:34] Speaker B: Oh, my. I mean, and I was trying to sit there and I'm like, wow, you don't realize the hatred to something is almost as bad as the desire for the thing. Right. Like, there's a space in that middle which is so beautiful, which is so. And then the humor of it is that that's a space I found for, you know, with my mentor, as I mentioned. But to some degrees, it overlaps a lot with Buddhism. My friends will joke with me and say, Andy, you're a Buddhist as well with Buddhism. [00:21:02] Speaker A: See, this is typical of all the big misunderstandings of Buddhism that they are atheists, which they are totally not. But what they are not, on the other hand, is they don't. They don't blame any one God for all the bad stuff. So they don't. They deny the omnipotence of any of God, even though they know they even have a thing. In one sutra that I. Only five years ago, after 55 years of study, I discovered this one thing that blew my mind again. And that is they. They have the actual God. Oh, that I knew a long time ago, actually, what was. I'm losing my train. Yeah. Well, I only discovered that they simply are against the omnipotent thing. And actually they have a treatise that are newly found where the God, that God himself, who's called Brahma, he. He asks for sensible rishis to tell people that although he does exist, he's not omnipotent. So they can't blame him for the bad stuff. They have to take responsibility themselves and their collective, you know, that they can make bad by acting like, you know. And we see that happening rather intensely. And so that to me was a huge thing and it got me to forgive. I didn't really hate God, but I didn't like it. [00:22:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:31] Speaker A: When I was little because I didn't like seeing his son up there, supposedly. Son, you know. [00:22:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. [00:22:38] Speaker A: I'm talking about not Catholic, Presbyterian, but I didn't like seeing him hanging there. It really was, what is this? It's, that's like really tasteless to inflict that all the time. And I, it must have been my sense, you know, I, I think you probably know, I think you do know this, that you may have mentioned even in the book. But the art historians will tell you very firmly and the archaeologists that Christians, until the Council of Nicaea by Constantine, Constantine's puppets, they did not worship the crucifix at all. It's like if you had Jesus come today and then somehow he got himself electrocuted, then everybody goes around wearing the electric chair. [00:23:22] Speaker B: Yeah, [00:23:25] Speaker A: I mean it's, it's, it was a Roman thing showing their power. [00:23:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:30] Speaker A: Liminally and intimidating the pious person, you know, like they're more powerful than God. And of course the Christian is theologian is making all brilliant stuff about. Oh yeah, he rose from that, you know. [00:23:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:43] Speaker A: Which is the point actually. But then what they see every day, once the Romans do it is Roman, you know, rendering unto Caesar even your body. You know what I mean? [00:23:55] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [00:23:56] Speaker A: And that's a betrayal of Christ 100%. [00:24:00] Speaker B: And you know, really. [00:24:02] Speaker A: Anyway, so anyway, it enabled me, just like your book enabled me to be more tolerant about the post death nihilism. Your, this, this reading enabled, that other reading I mentioned enabled me to find sympathy for God. And then I think of this, this point, maybe you can write your deliberations on another article which is that by insisting and stressing ethical behavior in the Torah, in the, in the New Testament, in the, in the, in the Christian documentary and in the Quran, even by insisting on that God is indicating he's not omnipotent and we have Google things up and we shouldn't. Yeah, that's handing over agency to us. And then one, one fanatic told me, oh yeah, but that's just a sign of his omnipotence. I said, what? And he said, yeah, he's omnipotent, so he withdraws from being omnipotent. [00:24:59] Speaker B: Yes. And if you'll see. [00:25:02] Speaker A: Fine, fine, you keep that one [00:25:06] Speaker B: and you'll see the book, the point you're speaking to, which is when I give up the agency to someone or something or an idea outside of myself. Yeah, so what I'm, my life's, my life's work is saying it's all inside of you and please just ask your questions and dig in deep to see where is it true. That's why I put questions at the end of each chapter because I thought, [00:25:30] Speaker A: oh, that Was brilliant. So you made it very use of user friendly. Your book is very user friendly. Living. Dying to live. [00:25:38] Speaker B: Yeah, but, but that was the. It speaks to your point. You know, but there's another thing that's really funny or funny it's interesting to share, is that when my mom was killed by this drunk driver when I was 19, I happened to be taking a sociology of death class because even at that age, I was confronting that fear. And because I confronted the fear, I had this deep sense of urgency that I have to write or express my feelings to the people that mean most to me. Of which my mom was the most important person in my life. [00:26:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:14] Speaker B: And then I wrote her a letter. She got that letter and then she was killed by the drunk driver four hours afterwards. [00:26:21] Speaker A: Oh, no. [00:26:24] Speaker B: So this was a, this was a, this was an incredible moment because what happened was. I'm now conflicted because to be honest with you, that letter meant nothing to me, but it meant everything to everybody else because they looked at as a higher power and they looked at. It must have been God's intervention to give you this moment to have written to your mother. And, and so I had, I had at that young age given up any hope in God because I kept laughing, thinking God wouldn't have taken my mom away from me. The fact that I got the letter didn't, didn't. Didn't have that much significance compared to the loss. And it took me years to, you know, come back to it. Which is, which is beautiful. But. [00:27:06] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really intense. You know. You know, the, the worst understanding of that might would be about. You and your mother have been engaged for many lifetimes. [00:27:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:18] Speaker A: And somehow she was given. Not God didn't do it, but she, she wanted to give you some kind of gift or something. Even though it's an excellent. And she didn't intentionally do that. But in a way, on some other level, she, she, she, when she was reborn, especially to give you a certain weird gift of reaching your transcendent side for which she had to give her. She gave up her life. But point is, bam. It's instantaneous, hopefully. And then, and then they're back in a place from our point of view where they can, they can do another one and, and they'll be back, you know, like, like the Terminator, you know. [00:28:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And then it took me 30 years. [00:28:03] Speaker A: Right. [00:28:03] Speaker B: But it took me 30 years to find the meaning in it. And then when I found the meaning of it, of the gift of that urgency, I told my wife I was taking A shower at the typical midlife crisis. I said, honey, I'm going to drive through America for three months and I'm going to do 60 sessions and ask people to write letters to loved ones as if it'll be the last letter they ever send them. And I'm going to cry talking about it because it was such an emotional moment for me. [00:28:33] Speaker A: I think I'm going to do that. I have a person who is alive. [00:28:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:39] Speaker A: And alive. And as a daughter by a first wife who had a very complicated relationship because of the behavior of the ex wife who has now passed away. [00:28:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:52] Speaker A: Who was eight years older than me. So that means he passed away. I was married at 18. [00:28:59] Speaker B: Wow. [00:29:02] Speaker A: Somebody seeking motherhood. Anyway, so it lasted two, two and a half years, but we had an affair for a year before that night. She shouldn't have met. Anyway. Had a beautiful daughter. And then. But at the moment, very alienated and from. Not just for me, but from everybody in her life, even some of her own children. And so I'm wondering. I think I might try that. [00:29:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:32] Speaker A: Are you supposed to send it to the person? [00:29:33] Speaker B: And that's the beauty of it. That's what I learned along the way because I hadn't done one before I did this exercise. So I was letting intuition guide me. And what I realized was that the beauty of it was that you write with no desire outside of stating everything you want to say. And if you think I'm going to send it, you'll self edit. So you can't. You can't think, what am I going to send this? You think, what do I have to say? [00:30:05] Speaker A: I see. Without actually. Okay. Unconstrained by. [00:30:10] Speaker B: It has to be unconstrained person. Yeah. [00:30:13] Speaker A: Because if it does that sort of. Maybe my wife would decide if we should send it or not. [00:30:20] Speaker B: That's exactly. Yeah. Because I had a very interesting situation. Bob is really quite beautiful. This woman who's an editor for books and does book competitions, read the book. And they had a very intense experience and they asked if they could fly to Amsterdam to meet me to talk. And my wife, who doesn't take my writing seriously, said, hold on. This edit. Someone who judges book competitions is visiting you. You know, And I sat with that woman and she said, andy, I read your book and. And I wrote a letter to my estranged daughter. And I. And I sent it to her. And it was the most healing thing I could have done. And I thought, wow, this is. This is beautiful. This is incredible. Now this woman who visits me, she dies three months later. [00:31:08] Speaker A: Oh my God. [00:31:09] Speaker B: And then fast forward a year after that, I receive a letter or a message, in this case from the daughter that received the letter. [00:31:22] Speaker A: What did she say? Did she. Did she reconcile with her mother before she went from the letter? [00:31:27] Speaker B: Bob, this was the thing. She was so unhappy with what the mother wrote her that she now is a little bit angry towards me, that I encouraged the mom. Oh, no. So I told her, I said, listen, I'm. I'm happy to hold space and, and hear you and let you speak and give you that opportunity just to. And she just didn't, didn't want any, any of it. But, but it was, it was, it was amazing because these systems are so complex and dynamic. You can't say how the letter will impact the other, obviously, but what you could say is for that woman, three months before her own death, it was the most freeing thing she could do. And actually probably releasing herself to, you know, to move on to the next life. [00:32:13] Speaker A: And if the daughter was angry, it was probably. That means that when she got it, she didn't swallow it in some way and go and see her mom. And because she missed that, she felt badly when the mom died. So then she blamed you then. Of course, because her problem is that she's not taking agency for herself. [00:32:32] Speaker B: Agency for herself? Yeah. [00:32:34] Speaker A: She's not taking responsibility for her own attitude. Yeah. And that is the problem when they get like that. They just can only blame others. And then that makes them helpless to work on them, to shape themselves in a way that would satisfy them. [00:32:50] Speaker B: And there was that. [00:32:53] Speaker A: That's so interesting, Andy. [00:32:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And there was a chapter in the book, I don't know if you remember, which was on all of the different flavors of that victimization, because what I said was that in one of the chapters speaking to that point was that when my mom died, I wrote so personally in the book, as I speak to you, I could feel the tears come back because I had to touch some very raw places in myself. I became a victim. No one will ever love me like my mom loved me. All of the innocence of my child. I could feel the tears come up. I feel it because I was like, all the innocence of my childhood is gone. All of my faith in God is gone. Like all of it was like. And it was layer on layer on layer. So I created the self identity of victimhood. [00:33:43] Speaker A: Victimhood. Yeah. [00:33:44] Speaker B: And, and, and, and, and that, and that, that kind of, that self narration is so dangerous because it feels, it feels. So if I hold on to the pain of my mom, then I'm never gonna lose her or I'm gonna, like, I'm not gonna abandon what she meant to me. Whatever the, the narration of it is. [00:34:06] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [00:34:09] Speaker B: And it comes in so many different flavors that it's, It's. It's a very subtle energy. You see it in society a lot today. [00:34:16] Speaker A: It is, it is, it is. It reminds me of a story and there's a guy named Joseph Tafur who is an MD and lives in Arizona, and he, you know, he got his. While he was getting his. His medical degree in the American medical system, he took a lot of sabbaticals or something and he went to the Amazon and he. He apprenticed to the Chipito Ayahuasca, you know, and they do therapy. You know, a lot of it is vomit therapy. And then they also do this deep. They do this sort of thing, this Icaro, they call it, and they sing to people who are in that after harmony. And they. And they find these knots in their mind, you know, in their psyche. Quite amazing actually. But he tells a story during his thing in his book called Fellowship of the river, where he says that he. There was one case of an elderly German guy who himself was a therapist. He'd done Zen, he'd done. He'd done blah, blah, psychoanalysis, everything. And he was a professional, but he never satisfied with it, sort of. He really, really made it peak, whatever. And so he had come there with some friends and they were doing the routine and he had a lot of good trips with them and found things, but still he was. He was going to leave in two days or something. He still did nothing catapulted him through to the. Where he really wanted to be. So. So they brought in a lady from another tribe and they gave him a big toes and he. And then she sang Criminals. And then she discovered this thing where his actual birth mother died when he was only six months old or something. But he had known that, but he'd long forgotten about it, whatever. And he had a very good foster family and all that. He's healthy mentally in some other ways and. But it turned out that she discovered singing it. Singing, which she hadn't been told that his. His, you know, six months or very soon out of the womb Persona. Remember the loss of that warmth of that person he was attracted to as a mom and was his mom. And though then later when he learned to speak and everything, he hardly knew there was anybody there, you know, they just told him, you know, but actually his body knew or somewhere deep in his mind and there Was this like, brief. And a feeling of guilt that he had somehow caused it to her from the pre. Pre Personality, language and education time. That's why he never found it because it was inarticulate completely. But it was there. She found it. And she did some singing where something unraveled and something opened up. And then he was finally content where he was. You know. I guess he'd been also expecting. I love the way you put that earlier in this talk. Expecting to sort of flip out and go somewhere else. And instead it's here, but with a different perspective on what's here. A new. Your seer. The seer means Rishi, right? Rishi Andy Chalif. Rishi Andy Chalef. [00:37:28] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I did this second book, which was called the Wounded Healer, which was. Which was the book about the drive across America for the three months with all. And then. And then I talked about the archetypes of every individual that I was meeting. And. And I did the practice in it, which was this. It's called. It's called the Projection Reclamation. And I invited everyone after they wrote their letters. And there was intense subjects to say. The thing that's hardest to admit, acknowledge, say out loud, and then end it with. And it's okay. So my mom was killed by a drunk driver. It was the worst experience of my life. And it's okay. [00:38:12] Speaker A: And then the driver. Terrible thing for him, what happened to him. [00:38:17] Speaker B: It was a female. And it was an interesting situation because even at that young age, I understood the complexity of making decisions that were bad that would impact you. So I didn't have anger or resentment to this individual. I kind of. I had a strange compassion that, you know, there are consequences. You know, you need to deal with the court system. But it wasn't like an anger towards the person themselves. [00:38:47] Speaker A: Well, that shows you, you know, from our perspective, your former life, you were very much a Yoongi. You're very much a yogi. [00:38:55] Speaker B: Yeah. And I have a very interesting experience that a person close to me when I was younger recently had a car accident where they were drunk and they killed a baby in an accident. So I was. I was now, weirdly, 35 years later, having the same experience from the side of the individual who actually called, caused the situation. Yeah, Baby hit the two individuals. I guess he drove off the side of a road and hit the. And what for me was amazing was like I could see the same compassion that I had for this woman. I had for him, of course. But I also realized that there's still implications for Behavior. And that was. It's this complexity that's very hard to articulate because everyone wants to make a villain when in some cases our unprocessed pain is going to come out. It's going to come out in some form. [00:39:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:59] Speaker B: Distraction addiction. But you hope it doesn't come out in a form that actually could hurt another. And sometimes it does. And. [00:40:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's. That's terrible. Yeah, really. It's really harsh, that one. So, so interesting. So. So anyway, what have you with the. With the Dying to Live book? Have you had a lot of feedback from people? People written you and are you. You on substack? Do you get. Do you get people who want to discuss the book or they want to discuss their own? [00:40:34] Speaker B: You're gonna laugh. [00:40:35] Speaker A: Have you learned how to do chats with them? I do subsect too, but I haven't learned how to. I'm scared of doing chats. [00:40:41] Speaker B: You know, I. I'm scared of doing chats. And I live such an internal life that. That. That I want. Whoa, look at that. I look like I just got, you know, fourth of July experience behind me. I lit. I'm. I'm often feeling an experience and articulating it at the moment it arises, so I can keep the experience as real and honest and shape and form as it comes and what I know. And if. If you say, andy, I'm going to write you a chat to intellectualize this experience you had. And now we're not meeting in love and compassion. [00:41:21] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. [00:41:23] Speaker B: I. I tend not to engage in those environments because if I'm honest with myself, all I want for everybody is to go in. Into their own deep reflection and to have their own experience. I don't want to answer. I don't want to answer any question. I want everyone to find the answer from within themselves. [00:41:41] Speaker A: Of course, everyone is perfect, actually. They are just deceiving themselves when they do. Bad. [00:41:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, just deceiving yourself. [00:41:53] Speaker A: They really are like. Like, you know, and so then, you know, institutions, by the way, we, We. My wife is very strong about that. That we really cannot tolerate the dictatorships which are the attempt to revive the game of kings and queens, which. Because you can't have one person who might be projecting their own undigested pain onto the others in a position where they can mobilize a million people to kill millions of people. I mean, that, you know, then if they could maybe hurt themselves or punch the wall, maybe unfortunately inflict something on a few close neighbors, but otherwise it's just not possible. That anybody should be in a position of that. Magnifying that by harming so many. [00:42:40] Speaker B: I know, you know, and in my. In my writing, I take on every uncomfortable subject. So, like, I spent the day with a trans woman in Japan. And then I write how if we go through life and we just love people as they are, a day could be this beautiful without us needing to make it anything more than that. [00:43:03] Speaker A: Yeah, right, Right. [00:43:05] Speaker B: And I wrote another article that'll come out in a few weeks, which is about being in Indonesia. It's the most populous Muslim country in the world. And. And if I talk to some Americans and they talk to me about how dangerous and bad the Muslims are, and. And I look at the love and the generosity and the openness of heart. [00:43:29] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:43:31] Speaker B: And I want to. And I want to write to those experiences so we. So we don't objectify people and then stigmatize them and then create narrative. And it's just. Yeah. And again, it's being an example of what you want to see in the world. [00:43:48] Speaker A: Well, I think you're really doing that and you're carrying on with the. Carrying on with your work. And you. Yes. And by now you have many clients and that's. Who live for outstanding without. Without the framework of a thing. But then the last thing maybe that I'd like to bring up is, well, what. What do you. With all of this? What do you. How do you make out about the sort of implications and the reverberations of people who you work with who think there are three options? Right. They think there is a very big God and their God might punish them. So they're kind of scared, they die. They think there's no. Not only. No God, but there's no future consciousness at all. So then only they have to worry about the quality of their consciousness and fear of pain, of that while alive. And once they've managed to let go, then there's no problem. And how they are as people and how they feel compared to the first one and then the third one, which is that they think they will continue their consciousness and they will lose this body. They have anxiety about how to shape a good new embodiment and then seeing that as an endless future concern, aiming for some state of where the seer is so strong that they could never have a bad bond. Yeah, that's that which is called enlightenment. You know, let's. I'm saying in terms of the seer and the actor. And so they see that the seer is so strong that the actor will never get Stuck in a really bad identity. So let's see that as a possibility. Giving an endless. Have you. Have you had clients who did a strong. [00:45:31] Speaker B: Well, I mean, so, so let's go through each one of the three and I'd love to share a story about each three, if I may. [00:45:39] Speaker A: Oh, so please. That's perfect. That's perfect. [00:45:42] Speaker B: So. So the first person, let's call it this identity you're describing is a person who doesn't really want to just discuss it. Or is that. What do I understand that correctly? Or how would you describe that first person? [00:45:54] Speaker A: Well, the first person who believes in God. [00:45:56] Speaker B: And then that was the last. That was the last person I had in mind. Sorry, the. The one we went to, the first [00:46:01] Speaker A: one, the last one that I mentioned. Which then if you make that the first one, fine, okay. That's the one who thinks, who believes they were. They're. They themselves had infinite previous lives, beginningless previous lives. And they're now this human. And then the human, they want to know the meaning of it all. They want the reality of it all. And they think, they think without a mystical mysterious thing. They think in a common sensical way like you and I would think about well, I'm going to go to New York, I have to go down the thruway I don't believe in, but I just go on it. And so they feel about that will be a future situation. [00:46:34] Speaker B: Okay. [00:46:35] Speaker A: And so they're concerned there about. They have some anxiety about dying in that. And let the. Unless they're adept lucid dreamers or something, they don't really can control the subtle impulses in their consciousness to really assure themselves of a good embodiment so that they have a certain anxiety in that way like the. Like on the other side. The one of the things God might do something bad to them because they haven't been perfect in life, they'll have that anxiety. And the one who doesn't think there's any future will not have that kind of anxiety letting go. So let me say with examples of those three. [00:47:14] Speaker B: So I would. The one now that I'm a bit clear, the one we're describing of that there's iterations of life or that we're going to reincarnate. I would see there's for me the experience of the people. They're usually on my mind as a spectrum and the spectrum that I experience is the ones who need to believe in it emotionally because they're fearful of the idea of non existence. So it's not coming from a sensibility of I sense this in my being, but it comes from the. I don't want to believe this is not true. And I don't want to believe that it's about a God. So I'm believing in this idea of reincarnation. I see, I see so, and so I see that from the person who believes in it, from fear. It's a reactive state. And, and, and, and, and that is as it is. There's not a lot to say to that. And the person, and the person who believes in it. And I would say it still has to be belief, but it's a belief that goes down to a sense of like a knowingness within them. Then that's. I would call that, that's a. I call it almost a paradigm of experience in the world. And once you've had that paradigm, you sense what it feels like to see the world through those eyes. Yeah, and, and, and, and that's sort of how I've. [00:48:30] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a real one. Who. Really. Who, who. For whom. It's, it's a commonsensical. [00:48:35] Speaker B: For whom it's common sensical. And, and what I noticed is that the more it gets to someone where it's commonsensical, there's a consistency amongst all those people because they verbalize it very similarly. So you'll hear them and you'll say, oh, that's what it looks like when it manifests in front of you. So, so. And I'll have, of course, I'll have clients that are more in that and that enlightenment. But our talks are laughing a lot. They're seeing one another in loving ways. So there's one friend of mine who's a Zen Buddhist who teaches at B Bloomington, Jacob School of Music, Frank Diaz. And he's the most beautiful man. And when we come together, we're like two kids who get to experience the wonder of life and not pretend like we, like, we don't see how wonderful it is. And like, you know, we can let all the guard down and just be present because there's no ego that's fighting against. So, so that would be a manifestation of what it looks like in that sense. [00:49:41] Speaker A: Okay. Yes. And he. Future life. You're saying this guy. Sorry, that guy does think he'll have a future life. [00:49:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. He's certainly in that, in that state. [00:49:51] Speaker A: In a healthy way. I get it. [00:49:53] Speaker B: In a totally beautiful, healthy way. And we're there. And that he's the one who says, andy, you're a Buddhist. You don't know it, but you're a Buddhist. He'll say it to me over. And then three days ago, I'm on an airplane that gets delayed, and then I miss my connection. And then I'm on a bus. And I'm on a bus with a guy who has words across his chest that say hope. And before knowing anything, I know he's in the Catholic Church. I just know it. And there's no question that that's. And we sat and then the conversation began. And then we got to the point, you know, he asked really beautiful questions. We went very deep and we connected in a really beautiful way very, very quick. He asked about, you know, what God, and I told him about my mom's death. And then we got off and he looked and this is. This has just happened to me. We're walking out of this shuttle bus and he says, andy, what if the fact that you don't believe means there wouldn't be an afterlife? He says, andy, what? And this is a guy I've known for five minutes, but we're, we're really, we're really bonding. And I looked at him and I said, I'm not ever going to say to you that's not the, that's not the case. That, that's not, that's not for me to say. What I'm saying to you is if there's any part of you that's stepping away from the discomfort that there's the idea that there's not an afterlife and you're not examining it, that's the area. I look within myself, I see, okay, and that man, he had half tears in his eyes and he wanted to hug me because in a way, through our interaction, he connected to himself. I didn't disconnect him. I didn't meet him intellectually. I didn't try to beat him. I didn't try to convince him. You know, he. Yeah, nor was he trying to convince me. But we had in minutes a beautiful interaction where all we sat with was the complexity of the emotions that arise when death is the subject. [00:51:53] Speaker A: Yes, yes, absolutely. [00:51:55] Speaker B: And so he wrote his. He wrote his number down and he gave it to me. And then, and then he said, I want to keep in contact with you. And that was, that was, you know, in a matter of minutes. Because that's what's possible if you don't engage the world from a belief. If you don't say you're, you're. You're wrong. [00:52:13] Speaker A: Well, that, in a way, yeah, that reminds me of Dalai Lama. There was some really inter religious conference In Finland you can see this on YouTube and different people are giving their. The rabbi and this and that are giving their views of their beliefs. And then Dalamus is the one they address at the end and they say, well now what do you believe? You're holiness. And then he says, well, I have a little bit of problem with the idea of belief. He said instead saying, I believe this and that. He said, I have a problem with the idea and not that. There is not. There's no such thing. But you know, there's different kinds that he went into and. Yeah. Having a belief dominate your. Your. Your experience actually. [00:52:57] Speaker B: Yes. [00:52:57] Speaker A: Rather than be a kind of window that you could use, but not stuff that it doesn't. The whole thing. And that's totally, of course that all the index psychologies which are. You know. Sometimes the Dalai Lama likes to be naughty. And once I was with. Listening to him and he. In Goa and the University of Goa, Goa University, he was giving a lecture and then at the end of the lecture he wouldn't talk about Buddhist psychology. And so somebody asked him well, what about modern psychology? He was just kind of getting ready to leave. It was like the last question. [00:53:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:29] Speaker A: So he was almost like, you know, picking up his whatever like this. But then he turned to address it and then he said. Then he kind of looked a little sneaky like he does. I know that when he does something naughty, he likes to be naughty. [00:53:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:43] Speaker A: Because he likes to not be on a pedestal, you know. So in the naughty. The naughty Dalai Lama, he. He looks and he says Western or I think modern psychology is. And he says kindergarten. Then he leaves with a laugh, with a cackle, and kind of guiltily almost he says kindergarten, I think, isn't it? It's my thing lately, it's like, you know, trying to help people be cured. I think you say about it to help them find themselves, but I think that's very similar to what I think of as. Help them overcome the fear of reality. [00:54:31] Speaker B: Yes. [00:54:32] Speaker A: Since you are real and you're in reality and you can't get away from reality and you can have inner experiences where you think reality is infinite space or something. You can have them easily because we're amazingly reifying beings. But the point is we are in it will always still be reality. And yet they're afraid of reality and they'll be afraid of themselves, which is [00:54:56] Speaker B: the reason for that exercise. [00:54:58] Speaker A: I used to give a course at this little college I was in. My wife rather get it or they'll forget about it. We are coming along in time, but accept that. I'm sure I should have taken that away, but never mind. That's just like. [00:55:12] Speaker B: That's okay. [00:55:13] Speaker A: It's reality. And what is it? Yeah, yeah. In reality, Buddha's nirvana discovery, and I think your personal discovery without it being having to be Buddhist or Christian or whatever it is, or you're a guru. Krishnamurti was so great in refusing to be deified and to be glorified in the way he did. You know, and that story is really wonderful. [00:55:43] Speaker B: Yeah. I was going to say, speaking to that point, that was why this exercise that I use so regularly is take the most extreme thing that you so don't want to say or admit, and then you dispel it from yourself just by saying it's. And it's okay. I even say, and it's effing great. Like, you almost have to. Almost. It will not occupy any space, negative space in my consciousness. I. My. My mom was killed by a drunk driver. It devastated my life. And it's effing great. And it's not that nothing. [00:56:17] Speaker A: It was the key to the excellence of your life. [00:56:19] Speaker B: It was the key to the excellence of my life, yes. [00:56:22] Speaker A: Really? [00:56:22] Speaker B: Yeah. There was a third. There was a third group that. That you. That it would be great to touch on because you had the two. But there was the third, which was the atheist. [00:56:32] Speaker A: Yeah. No, that's the third one who thinks there's me now, who's sure there's nothing. My grandmother. [00:56:37] Speaker B: So. So I had. Interestingly, I did a podcast, and I had 200 or 300 episodes during COVID And the episode that got most. That people wanted to, like, have most often were these atheist episodes. Everyone was like, my God, like, they needed these episodes. And they were very, very starch. They're very, very. And so one of these people who edited all of my podcasts was a dear friend, and he was an atheist. And he. He turned 55, I think, and he said, andy, I'm divorcing my wife. I'm really going to live my life finally. I'm gonna just. I'm gonna experience this, and I'm gonna have what, everything I missed. And then. And then fast forward a year after that, and he says, andy, I'm gonna end my life. And he says, the only thing I could do is, I don't want anything from you. Will you just be there? Will you just allow me to hold space? Because everyone else is not giving me any space for this. And I just feel. And it was one of the hardest things that I. You know, and of course, not encouraging, but he felt even a little bit of trying to, to move him back. And hey, you can try this. You can go. He saw all my tricks. Why don't you come to my house? I'll pay for it. You can stay with me for a few months. He says, andy, if. Think about if these are the last few weeks of my life, why would I do that? You know, any, any. Hey, I've got this job. [00:58:08] Speaker A: And he really did it. He killed himself. [00:58:10] Speaker B: And then he finally ended his life. And I wrote an article for that, for Esquire magazine last year that was really popular. It was quite something. And, and, but the, the, the, the intensity. I got a lot of criticism for it as well. Like what a horrible person I was. And, and, and, and, and all of this. Really? Really? [00:58:30] Speaker A: Yes. Well, yeah. The thing is this one thing I was wanting to say to you that. [00:58:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:37] Speaker A: And when we were cataloging the three types. [00:58:39] Speaker B: Yes. [00:58:40] Speaker A: From the Buddhist point of view, the death wish of a human being, part of them, that is, it isn't like they're the, the, the materialists who are trying to defend against any. Of course they think future life automatically means God and it automatically means Catholicism or Judaism or whatever it is. And so. Or Islam. But. So they think that, so they think that formal future life is a childish projection of a fantasy because it's so difficult and they think they're so brave to embrace nothingness. [00:59:12] Speaker B: Yes. [00:59:13] Speaker A: That's the whole existentialist thing, but completely wrong from the Buddhist point of view because only because the death wish is so powerful, because of our experience in life, which is we have experienced. You know, if you're 50, 60 years old, you've had 10, 20, 30,000 times of becoming unconscious and falling asleep. [00:59:35] Speaker B: Yes. [00:59:36] Speaker A: Delight. And you'll get asked for ambient if you can't fall asleep. You know, I'm sleeping. And we've really. Could. We, we associate being unconscious with relief. So there's, It's a pretense from that point of view to oneself that there's a bravery at being obliterated. We welcome anesthesia on the operating table, even in the dentist's chair. So in other words, nothing that means eternal nothingness means eternal anesthesia. It might be boring. There's no ice cream. There's no subsect. There's no dharma, there's no whatever, delight. But there's no pain. And that's a very powerful part of the human being. So the Buddhist in the debate with that side, you know, wouldn't the Buddhists against eternal damnation, of course, 100%. But, but the Buddhist gives us the agency that we can make. We can make life into Gaza, we can make life into, you know, total famine in Somalia. You know what I mean? We can create. We do, we do. But it's never eternal, but we do create it. And so that is, That's a very. I think, I personally think that's a, that's a valid point that the idea of just, it relates to a kind of wonderful thing about nihilists or atheists or those who will not tolerate the future life idea because associated with the punishment by God, you see in pain. Yeah. Whereas the one who sees it as up still, it's going to be up to them in the next life too. Just to some in relation to others. But just like in this life, you know, we're going to have some pain. I sort of stub my toe and whatever, but I'm going to avoid as much as I can. Yeah. So it'll be, it's that kind of effort. Continue until we imagine because of its endlessness that there must be a place where the seer really is in charge and you find that you won't be attracted to any negative womb or even an egg. Even an egg. [01:01:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:01:48] Speaker A: And you know, like a chicken egg or a lizard egg or something. So, so I mean, anyway, these are the differences. But, but anyway, I, I'm thanking you in your book in that you remain a. You remain agnostic. So you. So the atheists will be mad at you, which is. [01:02:05] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [01:02:07] Speaker A: And you will be. You will be. And you're dealing with the issue of letting go. And also, by the way, you know, you remember Stephen Levine. I'm sure you know all about Stephen Levine. I don't know if you ever personally knew him. I, I knew him, but I loved one thing that he said. He said that sometimes, you know, in this kind of thing and you might be accused of that, that if you get into helping people in a hospice type situation, settle for the situation and let go and become peaceful and loving, then they're not fighting to stay alive. And that's bad. But he said that the people who do have miraculous remissions and that sort of thing are always people who have accepted that they could go. In his experience of like thousands of people, he. Because he was like a pre. Hospice institution, hospice person as, you know, like, like whatever her name was, you know, Elizabeth Kubler Ross. So, so anyway, it's, it's wonderful. I love it. I'm gonna look at your two early books. And I think maybe we should. We should call. We. We've gone about an hour and it's more than people usually can tolerate. [01:03:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, of course. [01:03:19] Speaker A: What would be your last. That thing for people, you know, who might meet you through your book, or of them, the Last Letter or the Wounded Healer or this latest wonderful one that I know, which is the Dying to Live. [01:03:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:38] Speaker A: Is there any last sort of little peroration you would like to. [01:03:42] Speaker B: You know, there's a theme. There's a theme you latched onto, which is. It's interesting because it's such a life theme for me. And I could see. See you through your articulation. It's the same for you, is this sense of agency that when you understand the deepest sense of what that feels like in your life, that anything that anyone does to you or creates as an emotion within you is only a mirror to learn from and to grow and to take. And so what I would leave is that the greatest gift you have is the tension that's in front of you at any given moment. And if. If my writing helps people see how someone authentically deals with that without teaching or preaching. Like, that's. That's the gift that I would love is the gift of how to hold the complexity of emotions without turning it outside of yourself and have compassion for yourself, for the situation, for the other, and realize it's all just a creation in our heads. [01:04:47] Speaker A: That's a perfect description of what we call the mirror. Like wisdom. [01:04:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:04:52] Speaker A: You know, the Adarsha. Adarsha vadnyana. Really wonderful. Well, listen, Andy, you like to say this. [01:05:01] Speaker B: Shalef is great as well. [01:05:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Andy. Caleb, Wonderful book. Can you wave the book for people? [01:05:08] Speaker B: Yes, yes, I have it here. [01:05:11] Speaker A: I couldn't find you. Dying to Live. Yeah, it's a great title too. Boy, people just say that, you know, they do say that. Anyway, so. Anyway, so thank you all very much and we'll be back. Time and this and. It's been a great pleasure, Andy. Really. I've loved it. [01:05:28] Speaker B: Great to be with you. [01:05:29] Speaker A: Well, now, do you sometimes talk in from Indonesia? I mean, it's only 12 hour. You're late every morning. [01:05:38] Speaker B: I go wherever I'm asked to go. And I just. It's always very real. It's in the moment. It's. It's engaging people with where they are and not trying to teach, as you already see. [01:05:47] Speaker A: That's one thing. I do love Berkeley myself. I think maybe because I'm in my 80s now, I. I feel very present with someone through Zoom, actually. Or what anyone. The meter meet up or whatever they are. I feel. They feel you're here and I'm there. I really do feel that saves on the gas also. [01:06:04] Speaker B: Well, I look forward to seeing you in person. I will be in New York in two weeks, so I hope to see you with our mutual friend. [01:06:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Do you ever do weekend retreats with your followers and friends? [01:06:16] Speaker B: You know what I. You know what I did, Bob? It's very interesting. I noticed because of my writing, as I told you, is so intimate. I'm so raw and I'm so letting my vulnerability out on the page that if I get a group of 10 people, I can see sense the overwhelm of bringing in all of that emotion around me. And, and, and I've had compassion for myself to say, oh, wow, that's just not my, that's not my forum. That's not where I can do it and I do it. Actually, I think I would say I do it well, but it comes at a cost on the back end because it's almost like. Yeah. And you saw, you came to my book launch. Did you see? I mean, I cried half the way through, you know, all of my sharing. [01:07:02] Speaker A: Because I did see that. I did. [01:07:04] Speaker B: Because that is that the book launch is different. [01:07:08] Speaker A: What I'm talking about is we do have this retreat center my wife made here in the Catskill. [01:07:12] Speaker B: I know. [01:07:13] Speaker A: In a magic valley. I don't think you. Did you go there? You've been there? [01:07:17] Speaker B: I've never been there, no. But I know, I know of it. [01:07:19] Speaker A: That's precisely the strength of this place is it's not like Omega or Kripalo or these huge things where they have hundreds of people and we do have smaller groups and it's very. There's a spa and it's very intimate. And so if you. It would be only if it would ever serve your purpose in that place where you have like half a dozen kind of what you might, what somebody, a guru might say advanced students, but you would say long term clients. And you don't have time to see them all in depth one by one, you know, do think of us. That's all I'm saying. Oh, that I love podcast, but. [01:07:59] Speaker B: Well, this is. Now you're speaking my language. Because to be in, in. In what would we say that in an intimate setting where vulnerability and groups like, my God, that's what I live for. That. That is life. That is the beauty of life. Yeah, I understand. [01:08:16] Speaker A: You know, in Japan, they call it. [01:08:24] Speaker B: Isshin Denshin. [01:08:25] Speaker A: So, yeah, maybe the forest bathing. [01:08:30] Speaker B: I lived in Japan for a few years, and Ishinchin is this idea that we're so intimate with one another that we can read each other's minds because we understand so well where they are. So I didn't know if that was the term you were pointing at or not. [01:08:44] Speaker A: Yeah, that is one. That's our motto here. And we have Shinto shrine in a rock. We have a dragon in Iraq. The guy came from the Shinto thing and stole them in a certain rock. [01:09:01] Speaker B: Beautiful. [01:09:03] Speaker A: And then the forest bathing is that national treasure in Japan. Who proves that just being in the forest, it does this stuff to you and so on. So anyway, it's a beautiful little hidden. It's a magic Shambhala Valley sort of thing. So just to have it in your consciousness sometime, I would love. [01:09:23] Speaker B: Absolutely. [01:09:23] Speaker A: So that. I just couldn't resist that mentioning that. [01:09:26] Speaker B: Please. [01:09:26] Speaker A: Okay. So have a wonderful time. And then where are you going from Puerto Rico. You're going to. [01:09:32] Speaker B: For Puerto Rico? I'll be in the United Kingdom for a week, and then after that I'll be in New York. [01:09:37] Speaker A: Oh, great. [01:09:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And then I'll see. I'll see our mutual friend and I'll see another friend and, you know, a lot of work here and there. [01:09:43] Speaker A: Yeah, we might get that. We're up in Woodstock now. We finally came back from the city where we've been. That's why I was able to get to your book signing. But long drive to get there from here or not. Too bad. But I'll try to come if you do a thing. [01:09:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd love to. Well, Matt has. Matt has invited me to join some of the galas and things, but I've always had other things going on, so I've never got to visit. [01:10:08] Speaker A: Okay. [01:10:08] Speaker B: Thank you. [01:10:09] Speaker A: Thank you so much and so grateful for your time. By the merit of this dialogue, go to help everybody discover themselves as soon as possible. And so then they'll be happy with themselves and they'll be. Make other people happy. Okay. [01:10:24] Speaker B: Can only. Yes. Thank you. Have a good day. Bye. [01:10:28] Speaker A: You too. You too. Okay, bye. Have a great day. Bye. Bye. Thank you. [01:10:48] Speaker B: The Bob Thurman podcast is produced through Creative Commons, no derivatives license. Please be sure to like, share and repost on your favorite social media platforms. And it's brought to you in part to the generous support of the Tibet House U.S. menlo membership community and listeners like you. To learn more about the benefits of Tibet House membership, please visit our websites@th thus.org menlo.org and bob thurman.com Tashi Dalaik and thanks for tuning in.